The Not-So-Certain-Death of Sirius Black (Essay)

[amanuensis1]

Essay. Long.

This has been brewing since OotP cut my heart out.

Is Sirius dead? Why on earth should we think he's not? Isn't it unfair to not go all Elizabeth Kubler-Ross-y on him and just be stuck on denial? But why should we be certain of anything until the last word of Book 7 is written?

(And how can I write post-OotP fic that deals with his death when I don't want to deal with it?)

The argument is not so simple as "is he really dead" or "will he come back"--it also centers on whether anything of him will ever be seen again. It's a magical universe, after all. Some readers are certain he is not dead; some think he is dead but that he will be seen again in an afterlife setting or in a mirror or somesuch. And there are those who think that any such glimpse of him would be cheating the emotional impact that Rowling wanted to create with his death.

So. Essay. Point and counterpoint.

(I would like it if my position on what follows--where I believe the argument and where I believe the counter-argument--was not obvious, and that the reader couldn't tell which was my position, but I don't think that's likely. I'm not that good at disguising bias.)



Will Sirius Black Reappear? Fourteen Arguments For and Against.

1. She just couldn't do that to Sirius! How could Rowling do that to Sirius, of all characters? Sirius went to Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit for twelve solid years. Sirius rotted there, suffered there, nearly went mad there--and worst of all, the world believed him a follower of Voldemort, a mass murderer, a Judas. Sirius has been on the run or in impotent hiding, since his escape; hasn't even had his name cleared. He's just starting to rediscover some happiness in developing the guardian/older brother relationship he has with Harry. He's had the most awful life of any heroic character in these books--and it's Sirius she kills?

Counter: It's a perfect example of how unfair life is. A lot of unhappy lessons are in that death, for Harry--how death doesn't care if you were just getting your life back, how loved ones die, how the people you counted on to be there for you can't be counted on when it comes to the unfairness of death. And Sirius is, sadly, an excellent candidate for that dreadful lesson.

2. What the hell is left for Harry? What lies at the end of the books for Harry? Evil vanquished, we can assume that. We can't say for sure that Harry will live, but it seems reasonable to go with the assumption that he will. But what does Harry get after evil is vanquished? True love? Oh, please--he'll be seventeen. A career? Well, yes, but again, at seventeen, that's a vocation, that's not who you are. What Harry has lacked, what Harry deserves, is a family. Not a wife and children; again, he's just a teen. Harry's happy ending has been set up, since book three and even before, to be him earning a home, and that means Sirius.

Counter: No one ever said that heroes get happy endings. Many stories take pains to show the opposite, in fact--that heroes sacrifice, and die, and if they don't die, they don't get to go back to the way things were, or should be. They can't, by reason of the sacrifices and sufferings that made them heroes.

3. Don't believe it 'til you see the body.When so many authors--of books, films, television, graphic novels, whatever--show deftness in being able to resurrect characters even if they have been killed, embalmed, buried, mourned, etc., the rule of "don't believe it if you haven't seen the body" is doubly telling. What's with this veil stuff? Rowling is not afraid to show killing in all its full frontal, so to speak--we saw that with Cedric in GoF. And there's an element that should not be missed, in examining how GoF dealt with Cedric's death: Harry risks his life to fulfill Cedric's beyond-death request: take his body back to his parents. Cedric's body is recovered, returned, buried and mourned, effectively putting to rest any idea that a resurrection is going to occur. Not so with Sirius.

Counter: "Not until you see the body" is not to be mocked; this is why body recovery is so important in disasters. Those who have lost a loved one so unexpectedly are adrift, in disbelief, convinced there must be some mistake, inventing all sorts of scenarios where the person might not be dead but incapacitated, unable to be found, and they will have difficulty letting these ideas go, even when all the evidence points to the simplest explanation: that the loved one is dead.
While the Veil may be a clever way of not letting us see the body so that "resurrection" can occur later, the explanation may be that the Veil is there as an extreme metaphor, to emphasize that the place beyond death is a place, and that death would be made so much more bearable if there could be proof of an afterlife. The veil does not prove it, but it is there as something on which to base faith; Harry can hear the voices, and Luna, the representative of spiritual belief, not only hears them but has perfect faith that they are indeed the voices of the dead in the Beyond, and that she needn't be sad, because she will see her mother again someday. And Harry wants to believe this is so, even if he cannot come to it as easily as Luna. In a world where magic breaks many rules, but not all, Rowling is emphasizing the idea that faith is still needed to cover the contingencies.

4. Two words: No funeral. Rowling made much of the idea that Cedric was laid to rest in GoF, and he was not nearly so significant to her protagonist as Sirius. To kill a character so beloved to Harry--and read your OotP; the affection Harry has for Sirius is just built upon and built upon in this book in particular--you'd think there'd be some proper good-byes. While we see Harry mourning, it's a lonely mourning--Hermione and Ron don't talk about it because they think Harry doesn't want to; even the members of the Order, in their show of solidarity (and love) to Harry at the train station don't even speak of it. With Sirius dead, you think you'd have Dumbledore pushing to get his name exonerated posthumously, now that Sirius's whereabouts no longer need to be secret. You think we'd get that. You'd think that above all, we could have had the funeral.

Counter: Funeral? Ye gods and little fishes, wasn't OotP long ENOUGH?

5. No ghost? No mirror? We're more stubborn than that. Following Sirius's death, Rowling does a step-by-step "debunking" of the idea that Sirius might appear again, even beyond death. Harry wonders if he might become a ghost, but Nearly Headless Nick quashes that idea. Harry finds the mirror, but either Sirius doesn't have his, or the mirror was never meant to reach beyond death. But the list is by no means exhaustive. There are portraits, and there are trading cards, and the Mirror of Erised and wands that spit out the shades of their victims. It's nicely misleading to have dealt with the most obvious concepts and have Harry give up in despair, leading the reader to conclude the same thing--when Rowling may instead have something else up her sleeve.

Counter: Yes, the list isn't exhaustive, but it's not deliberately unexhaustive. Yes, in a magical world, there are many ways of getting some "face time" with the dead. We've seen some of them, and it's unreasonable to think Rowling would have to include them all in going through the "debunking." The examples of the ghosts and the mirror are meant to serve as the introduction to the "some things are final, even in a magical world" concept, and we're meant to follow that to its logical conclusion.

6. Mirror, mirror. Why include the mirror? The mirror is the briefest of throw-aways. Why introduce it at all, if it is not to play a role later?

Counter: The mirror is a cruel irony. It's another example of how young Harry is, how inexperienced he is in trying to fight a war no child should have to fight, in the absence of the adults who should be protecting him. Harry, looking at that mirror, has even more reasons to curse his recklessness in rushing off to save Sirius. His grief and self-blame are magnified even further. If Rowling needs Harry to grow up in a hurry, it's one of the most effective ways to do it, with that cruelty.

7. It shoulda been Dumbledore. The argument that a death was necessary to teach Harry that loved ones die, especially in war, is cited as a reason for Sirius's death. But it's unlikely that Rowling could have chosen anyone more beloved to Harry than Sirius. Even the death of Ron or Hermione, which certainly would have been so dreadful for Harry, could arguably be said to have less immediate impact on Harry and Harry's future--they are his best friends, but Sirius is his family, the one to whom he turned with the most difficult questions. It's so cruel to have done this to Sirius--to Harry--that that alone argues for his reappearance. More, if the death was needed for the "people you love die in wars, and don't come back" argument, there is a better candidate for it than Sirius. Had Dumbledore died, it seems unlikely that there would be "it's too cruel" and "he's not really dead" debates to the extent that there have been over Sirius. Dumbledore was all but set up for it, rescuing Harry from Voldemort directly, saying "...there are things much worse than death...", acting as the focal point of the side of good, ready to die for what he believes. And he's lived a full life. The classic hero story requires that the mentor die, for the hero to come into his own, and Harry's mentor is Dumbledore, not Sirius. Dumbledore made more sense to the narrative, if a candidate for permanent, irreversible death was needed.

Counter: It may simply be that Harry needed to be shaped with the most devastating death possible, and Dumbledore doesn't fit that category. Dumbledore may also be too crucial to the story to come.

8. Listen to the author. Rowling has said that what happened to Sirius has a part to play in what is to come--that it served some purpose. This certainly leaves the field open to speculation that he’ll be seen again.

Counter: There are many ways Sirius's death could play a part without having him reappear. Not merely to teach Harry about the unfairness of death, but plotwise. Sirius was called "the last of the Black line"; Sirius's death involved the mysterious Veil; Harry may come near to the line between death and life himself in the future. This does not guarantee that Sirius will prove to be alive, or come back to life.

9. Two more words: Stubby Boardman. What in the world was the Stubby Boardman business all about, if not to play some role? More significantly, Luna believes. Luna is the voice of faith in Rowling's world of reason, as witnessed by her unshaking belief that the voices behind the Veil prove an afterlife.

Counter: Not all of what Luna believes is true. Rowling has shown her contempt for false prophecy with Trelawney, and in the outlandishness of sensational publications like the Quibbler--but she also demonstrates respect for the occasional truth that can be found in such sensationalism (witness Trelawney's rare Seer prophecy, plus Firenze's detailed teachings of Divination, which say that it's not a skill humans readily have and doesn't apply to small, petty things). Luna's belief is more that of "look for the occasional truth amongst the random madness."

10. "Harry, Hermione, take this time-turner--eh, why bother."Why the hell was the saving of Sirius the entire purpose of PoA, if he was only going to be killed off two books later? How completely, utterly wrong is that?

Counter: Cedric's death was a cruel and pointless murder by the forces of evil ("Kill the spare"), and introduced Harry directly to the concept of the deaths of the innocent in a war. Sirius's death was a cruel but purposeful attack by those forces, and showed Harry that the ones you are especially likely to lose in a war are the warriors. The price of opposing murderous evil is risking death; if Harry is to fight evil, he will not be exempt, and must see that directly.

11. What IS the Veil? How do we know that falling through the Veil equals death? No one has actually stated this! No character will say that the Veil is an execution device, or that the curse Sirius took to the chest killed him before he fell.

Counter: There is one character who is willing to commit to the statement that Sirius is dead: for all of the ambiguity of Remus's "He's gone," and the lack of anyone else saying anything at all about it, it is Dumbledore who speaks the words: "It is my fault that Sirius died." He uses the word death. (Hagrid does too, though he wasn't there to witness it.) And if anyone should know about these things, it's Dumbledore. The man has made mistakes before but most of that has been as a result of withholding information when he shouldn't've, and, particularly in this revelatory moment to Harry--not merely all the things Dumbledore should have told him but that Dumbledore should have told him--it's unlikely that Dumbledore is concealing any doubt about Sirius being dead.

12. What color is YOUR killing curse?The circumstances regarding the curse that Bellatrix fired at Sirius, which he took in the chest, suggest that it was not the killing curse. The color of the bolts fired, plus Sirius's delayed reaction and full awareness as he falls, run counter to what we know of Avada Kedavra. Thus, Sirius may have been alive as he fell beyond the Veil.

Counter: Avada Kedavra can hardly be the only spell with deadly potential. One does not need an electric chair to kill--a knife will do the same, wielded on a human body effectively, even if the electric chair was designed specifically to kill and the knife only as a cutting tool.

13. It's a magical world after all.We've had ghosts and mirrors and portraits and wands that regurgitate the shades of their dead--it's just reasonable to believe that something similar will happen with Sirius. And Harry Potter is a hero story--it's possible that the contact will take the classic, mythic form of the hero traveling to the underworld.

Counter: For this death to have impact, such contact cannot happen. Harry must see that sometimes dead is dead, just like every Muggle must accept it.

14. Listen to what the author doesn't say. Rowling has been free, in the past, with quashing speculations that she thinks aren't worth her readers' speculation. ("Lily a Death Eater? How dare you! Voldemort Harry's father? No, no, you're fixated on Star Wars.") Whether you believe all she has to say, her lack of information on Sirius's fate has to be telling. Certainly we'd all have to pay attention if she said, "No, Sirius is dead. Death--final death--happens in the wizarding world, and I needed to show Harry a death that would hit him harder than the murder of Cedric or even those of his parents. It's necessary that Harry lost the person he cared for most so that he could become the person I need him to be for the last two books." And Rowling hasn't.

Counter: Yet.

Comments

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

What the hell is left for Harry? ... We can't say for sure that Harry will live, but it seems reasonable to go with the assumption that he will. ... What Harry has lacked, what Harry deserves, is a family. Not a wife and children; again, he's just a teen. ... to be him earning a home, and that means Sirius.

I've been thinking about the end of the series for a long while. This is what I'd like to see, though I doubt it will be what happens: I'd like Harry to die in the end. Die while saving the world? Fine, good. Everyone else will go on and have a happy life because of him. But death wouldn't/shouldn't be the absolute end of the story; we'd need just a paragraph or so showing him (his spirit or whatever) walking towards his parents and Sirius.

A bittersweet happy ending? Not exactly, IMO. By fame or by how he spent his childhood, Harry has always been sort of outside of the world around him. Yes, while at Hogwarts he has some friends and is (sometimes) accepted and liked, but that's not the majority of his lifetime. It would fit to take him back out of the world (more literally this time) once his role was finished, but to also give him what he wants and needs: Family, friends, love. A reward.

I just wish that JKR has the guts to kill him...

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

Eeee! You have just put your finger on one of the things I like best about cluegirl's "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent."

Read it read it read it!

[anjenue.livejournal.com]

This is such an excellent essay, Amy, and so true. There are a number of points to be made in favor of life, and an equal number in favor of death. This outlined them beautifully. Thank you for sharing. :)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

You're too nice. I was trying to be as thorough as I could--hope that didn't make it exhaustive. ^_^

[miss-pryss.livejournal.com]

Of all the arguments in favor of Sirius's return, "no body" is the most persuasive to me. The whole veil thing just feels too contrived.

It's a good rundown, though. Time will tell, I suppose. If by "time" you mean the countless decades until we can expect the 7th book...

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Again, Rowling's careful disposition of Cedric's body does feel like a set-up for "and if there were no body?" with Sirius's death. But don't start making me fear decades! Man, if I could just read the suckers now, and come to terms with Sirius's death, rather than holding on to hope... Sigh.

[(Anonymous)]

Nicely Argued. Loved this:

Counter: Funeral? Ye gods and little fishes, wasn't OotP long ENOUGH?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heh. Can't ignore that. Not that I felt it was too long, but that volume was nearly a cube.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

And you know that we'd all have to see the exact transcript and pore over it looking for loopholes. ^_^ If you find the link let me know! Again, it doesn't eliminate the possibility of seeing him again in some form.

And I really, really, REALLY need to know that reason, dammit! Like, NOW.

[elsajeni-fic.livejournal.com]

... not dead, not dead, not dead. *does a little chant, complete with toddler-fists*

Thank you, darling, for helping to keep my fragile hope alive.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heh. Keeping it alive on one hand, cutting it down with the next, I fear! Thanks.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Hrm ... I don't think Sirius will come back, but maybe there will be some sort of communication.

Maybe he will give some sort of advice? In another form?

Maybe that is what makes the red light important (whereas green would mean that he is not only beyond the veil, but emphatically DEAD, too).

Also the emphasis on the body -- Cedric's request to bring his body back. Yes.

Because the Stubby Boardman thing was just so much of an obvious set-up. That was way too carefully done. Like the Mimbulus Mimbletonia. I am *sure* we will see that again -- Luna wouldn't have mentioned SB again at the end (as I think she did) if it weren't.

I don't know ... I don't want Sirius to come back because I feel like that is an emotional cheat. That is an insult to the experience of loss -- to pretend that you can somehow "get it back." Death SUCKS, and one of the things I love about JKR is that she is so unsparing about real loss and real suffering -- I don't think that she is going to do anything to modify the rules of a universe that she has already established to be really really really fucking miserable and unfair sometimes (much like life). I just really don't think her own understanding of death, as set up in the books, would permit that. All we get are shadows and echoes (the wand, the mirror of Erised), etc. Or ghosts, which in this case is impossible.

Also, the books are following a pretty traditional epic structure, and Book 5 was the darkest point, where Harry had to suffer horrible losses that can't ever be repaired (as part of the hero's journey, or however you want to conceptualize it).

But. I definitely agree with #8 and #14, as well.

So actually this sets up an interesting question. How is somebody who we already know refuses to change her vision, however harsh it is, to please other people going to manage to bring someone back -- in one way or another, however temporarily -- without going against the moral principles of the world she has already established?

*scratches chin*

Thanks for a great post!!!

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Also, the books are following a pretty traditional epic structure, and Book 5 was the darkest point, where Harry had to suffer horrible losses that can't ever be repaired (as part of the hero's journey, or however you want to conceptualize it).

Oh, that's a point not to be missed, yes! The darkest point of the hero's tale doesn't come just before the end.

And your point that Rowling has to please her readers--at least we assume she wants to!--while not just chew-and-regurgitating happy pap for us is a good one. She can't have us screaming for three books/six years' worth about how evil it was for her to kill Sirius.

[khames.livejournal.com]

Very well argued, both ways.
As far as number 11 goes... "What IS the Veil?" Page 817 American version of OotP, Dumbledore tells Fudge

"you will find several escaped Death Eaters contained in the Death Chamber..."

One can only assume this is the room with the Veil, and since it's the only thing in the room, well...

:) One can still hope Padfoot lives though. I'm keeping my galleons in my pocket though.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, the Death Chamber. Still doesn't tell us exactly what it is. If you go through it, are you dead? Are you in the land of the dead though not dead? (See how we grasp at straws? ^_^)

[curia-regis.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I really like your arguments both for and against. *crosses fingers* Hopefully he's alive.

I like your argument that Sirius's death would subvert the entire purpose of PoA. Because it does. Although, this can happen in RL, it isn't RL, it's a novel and there's supposed to be a point to everything. Therefore, Sirius should stay alive. Although, we could say that the point was for us to see 12 Grimmauld Place or something like that. Or perhaps for us to know that Peter was the traitor. *sigh* For every argument, there's a counter-argument.

Hope you don't mind that I've friended you!

~Ayla

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Thank you for coming aboard! And the idea that they worked so hard to save Sirius in PoA only to kill him two books later hurts. He had next-to-no chance to regain anything like happiness.

[puppy-tenchan.livejournal.com]

For me, there is one bog proof that we have not seen the last of Sirius (in whatever form he will return is yet to be explored): the "death scene" was written horribly. Not only because of content, also because of style. Or, less diplomatic: it sucked badly. However, J.K. is not a bad author. No genius, sure, but not that bad.

Also: people see it as an arguemtn for his absolute death, that she claimed to have cried throughout writing that scene. Sorry, people, but: NO. I don't know about the rest of the world, but I know that I and a few of my friends bawl our eyes at every sad scene we come across. It may be a movie, for example, and I have seen that movie 45678 times, and I may know that the person in question will be saved/come back to life/didn't really die, and I will still cry. Because it's a sad scene, and I can feel the sadness of the other characters. In other words: J.K.'s tears prove absolutely nothing, except that she's a sensitive person and close to her characters.

There are more points against his final demise than for it. Sadly, I have experienced countless times before, that those points would be ignored, would they be brought up, because the one bringing them up was "just a Sirius fangirl and is in denial anyway and who cares about the fangirls?"

[arachnethe2.livejournal.com]

"just a Sirius fangirl and is in denial anyway and who cares about the fangirls?"

I do. :)

[nattish.livejournal.com]

12. What color is YOUR killing curse?

This was the one that had me when I first read the "death scene." I remember pacing around the room in tears, whispering, "the light was red, the light was red! It wasn't green!" (I also remember whispering all the other reasons why he couldn't possibly be gone and why his death JUST WASN'T FAIR. *weep*). So I will be hanging on to the hope that, while I am sure the veil was meant to symbolize death, there really wasn't a reason to make the light that hit him red and then throw him into some mysterious land unless his "death" will be brought up again; after all, why would Rowling want us to be uncertain like this? Was it to drag out Harry's uncertainly and, as you mentioned, drag out the length of the book on top of it? Bah! I think if Sirius were gone for good, she would have made sure the reader new for certain that he was dead, and smacked Sirius upside the head with Avada Kedavra.

Great essay! You brought up some things I'd never considered and some things that have been taking up space in my head for a while.

[maantje.livejournal.com]

Amen. I was also thinking about the accident during Harry's Astronomy exam. When Umbridge and others (forget which people it were, too long ago since I've read it) used Stupify on Hagrid and McGonagall. JKR kept talking about the RED beams that came out of their wands. She just kept emphasising the RED beams. That kind of makes me suspect that Sirius was hit by a Stupify curse and that it will be an important factor in one of the next books.

[arachnethe2.livejournal.com]

Although I belong to the group of the followers of "she just couldn't do that to Sirius"-thesis, I on the other side hope, that once JKR showed enough guts to let him die, she will stick to that fact and let him be dead. She is after all writing a novell and not a second-rate american (sorry!) TV-show.

On the other site, I - a mere slash writer - am not under the pressure of expectaion of any kind, so I can afford to bring the guy back, because I need him for my stories dammit! Where I can perform all these delicious things on him, which are worse than death. ;)

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on re Sirius' death. I believe that JKR has a reason for him leaving (and no doubt she'll make it all apparent at the end) but I suspect it has a lot to do with Harry.

If Sirius was still around, Harry would feel protected, have an alternative father-figure that could maybe stand up to Dumbledore when things got too tough. But now, Harry has to keep returning to the Dursley's, suffering every school break and becoming harder? lonlier? I'm not sure - but there's got to be a good reason.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm definitely trying to figure out how Harry's life can get harder and lonelier than it is right now. The next book is going to be so dark it'll be ultraviolet. And if it isn't, something's very wrong.

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

Amy, great essay! Unbiased and thorough and enjoyable. And great for referencing, too. *memories*

(And how can I write post-OotP fic that deals with his death when I don't want to deal with it?)

Yes, it does leaves us in a quandary - how can you write something you're emotionally (not to mention intellectually) completely opposed to...

the explanation may be that the Veil is there as an extreme metaphor, to emphasize that the place beyond death is a place, and that death would be made so much more bearable if there could be proof of an afterlife. The veil does not prove it, but it is there as something on which to base faith; Harry can hear the voices, and Luna, the representative of spiritual belief, not only hears them but has perfect faith that they are indeed the voices of the dead in the Beyond, and that she needn't be sad, because she will see her mother again someday. And Harry wants to believe this is so, even if he cannot come to it as easily as Luna.

Lovely, graceful explanation. I have to say this was one of the parts of OotP that made me unashamedly cry:

'In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them.'
They looked at each other. Luna was smiling slightly.

(But then, I am a Christian. *g*)

And I enjoyed your pithy subtitles! 10. "Harry, Hermione, take this time-turner--eh, why bother." *g* I have to say, I've never heard that argument of why bother saving Sirius in PoA, if you'll kill him off later. I'd tend to disagree on the grounds that PoA is one book, OotP another, and each has its own narrative structure and momentum. Sirius is key to the plot of PoA, key as a character and to the reader's hopes for Harry's future happiness with Sirius his relative, and so saving him is justified, IMO.

(And, eep! Killing Harry at the end of the series? Noooo! He'll only be seventeen - I'd feel cheated. That's too young to die, even to fulfil a nice aesthetically pleasing 'looped' storyline. I want him to have *some* happiness, dammit!)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

PoA is one book, OotP another, and each has its own narrative structure and momentum.

Oh, that's a very good argument for that, thank you! Well-put. Doesn't mean I feel better about it, heh, but it's an excellent literary argument.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

I'm all for denial. Sirius will come back, dammit! I hold on to my hope based on the lack of a body - too much X-Files and soap operas during my formative years, I suppose. Great essay :)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

The lack of a corpse in fiction and the return of the character are so intimately linked that it's so hard to escape it. Ever. Authors must know that, they must.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

What Harry has lacked, what Harry deserves, is a family. Not a wife and children; again, he's just a teen. Harry's happy ending has been set up, since book three and even before, to be him earning a home, and that means Sirius.

He has a sort of surrogate family with the Weasleys. In fact Molly specifically states that she thinks of him as a son, ironically enough in an argument with Sirius. But then again, Molly already has a family; Sirius was the only person who was there for him and him alone - the person who cared about Harry more than any other person in the world, as Dumbledore says after Sirius's death, just to rub it in.

I like the idea of Luna being a symbol for belief. It's clear that Harry doesn't trust her entirely, but he could hear the voices behind the Veil too. In fact, he was strongly drawn to the Veil twice in the book, once before Sirius died and once after, when Lupin had to hold onto him to stop him following. I wonder if the more death you've experienced, the stronger the pull of the Veil? I can imagine Harry making plans to investigate the Veil further, and to maybe actually pass through it - it's the sort of reckless thing he might do, possibly. That's not to say that he would be successful.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I can imagine Harry making plans to investigate the Veil further, and to maybe actually pass through it - it's the sort of reckless thing he might do, possibly. That's not to say that he would be successful.

Can we say, "Book 6 and/or 7"? I knew we could.

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

This long essay only enhances my suspicion about how much your love for Sirius compensates for my lack of it. I didn't say "wah! But Harry! But Azkaban! But Sirius! JKR is EVIL!" when I read the Department of Mysreries scene, I friggin said "good riddance!". Harry's liking of Sirius grows in OotP, no question about that, but I always wondered for what fucking reason. Sirius is, IMO, ANNOYING (*ducks tomatoes*) in OotP. I know it's intentional, but still. GRRRRR. It made me seriously consider if I really like Harry that much. Do I? Am suddenly not so sure anymore.

Your ideas and points and opinions are well thought of. Clearly you dedicated much time to think about them (instead of *cough cough* writing me punishment-cagefic >:D), and I dunno, maybe Sirius will return sometime later in the series. My overall feeling, however, is that it's for good. The man isn't coming back, and it's tearing apart not only Harry but Lupin and Dumbledore too. The injustice of it all, and vagueness of the descriptions, I think it's some kind of lesson, you know. Things like that happen in a war. Someone dies in semi-mysterious circumstances but he/she dies, and though we have a hard time to accept that, we need to.

2 points I like to refer:

1. Dumbledore instead of Sirius - NO. I'm sorry to sound this vicious, but Sirius is dispensable. Dumbledore is absolutely NOT, plotwise. Harry is definitely not experienced, strong or mature enough to face the DEs not to mention Voldemort right now, and the whole scene in the Ministry only proved how many leagues higher in magic combating than him Voldemort and Dumbledore are. I think you'll agree with me when I say that Harry desperately needs to achieve that level if he's to fight face to face in the all-time heroic battle against Voldemort in book 7 (and JKR won't give up on it because that would be the anti-climax of the century). Harry NEEDS Dumbledore, and not only as an instructor. Harry needs now a true mentor, and O have the feeling that Dumbledore will be unleashed in the following books. The Second War (oh, how symbolic) starts, you know.

2. Avada is not the only curse with deadly aspects to it - I wouldn't be so sure about it if I were you. The 2 other curses with as much potential of homicidal circumstances as the Avada are indeed the other two Unforgivables. We don't hear of any other curse with the ability to inflict permanent injury expect them. Whenever I think of the possibility of other deadly curses in the magical world, I always have the scene of Buckbeek's alleged execution springing in my mind, and how the Ministry needed a fucking ex to kill it, instead of some curse designed to destroy powerful magical beasts.
I know it just sounds completely illogical, but it could be true. *shrugs*

<333 anyway. :)

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

Ahahahahah! Typo alert!

In meant: "Whenever I think of the possibility of other deadly curses in the magical world, I always have the scene of Buckbeek's alleged execution springing in my mind, and how the Ministry needed a fucking ax to kill it, instead of some curse designed to destroy powerful magical beasts."

Walden Macnair and the ex of doom! "But Waaaaaallden!" "Shut the fuck up! I need to go and kill some Hippogriffs!" "But Waaaaaaldennnnn we never have romantic candelit dinners anymore!"

xD

[bluepatil.livejournal.com]

But why should we be certain of anything until the last word of Book 7 is written?
Isn't it scar?

What the hell is left for Harry? What Harry has lacked, what Harry deserves, is a family.
If Harry lives, I think what's left for him is a normal life. He had a less than pleasant childhood, and ever year since he found out he's a wizard something huge has happened to him. Maybe he'd actually get to live like any other wizard, someday. He has a kind-of family in the Weasleys. And he's still got Lupin as a mentor.

7. It shoulda been Dumbledore-- I agree, if it had been Dumbledore, it would not have impacted Harry so strongly, partly because Sirius was Sirius and partly because Harry was so angry with Dumbledore by then, he might have hardly felt bad if he died.

This was splendid, there were many arguements in here I hadn't considered.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

partly because Sirius was Sirius and partly because Harry was so angry with Dumbledore by then, he might have hardly felt bad if he died.

Very well emphasized, yes! Dumbledore really messed stuff up, didn't he?

[dr-jekyl.livejournal.com]

As someone who sits firmly in the 'good riddance' camp *g*, this was an interesting read. But I have to say the primary reason that I think he's dead is your point number 8 (Listen to the author) in reverse.

From http://www.harry-potter-games.com/J.K._Rowling_Interview.htm (http://www.harry-potter-games.com/J.K._Rowling_Interview.htm), emphasis mine.

JEREMY PAXMAN: And is there going to be a death in this book?
JK ROWLING: Yes. A horrible, horrible
JEREMY PAXMAN: A horrible death of a significant figure.
JK ROWLING: Yeah. I went into the kitchen having done it....
JEREMY PAXMAN: What, killed this person?
JK ROWLING: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, "What on earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the person". Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, "I've just killed the person. And he said, "Well, don't do it then." I thought, a doctor you know....and I said "Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer."

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you for this! I do remember this interview, though I couldn't remember the details, and it's all in the details, isn't it? Of course, even the words "definitely dead" leave hopefuls saying, "This does not mean there could not be resurrection, nor does it rule out post-death appearances, especially in this universe."

The crying--well, even fake-out death can leave me sobbing. That she says she did is fuel for the "permanent" camp's fire, though I still don't see it as hard evidence. It does suggest she didn't consider this to be done lightly, nor would she pull any resurrection tricks lightly (and bless her for that).

what the author says, and doesn't say

[(Anonymous)]

I apologize for being anonymous. I'm a lurker in the fandom and haven't gotten around to getting my own lj.

I am a Sirius fan, and OotP was tough for me to read. That said, while I'm not happy about it, I pretty much come down on the 'really dead' side of things (despite the fact that his 'death' is so incredibly fishy). I also, however, don't believe that 'really dead' and 'out of the story' necessarily go together. And I have something to add to the whole 'listen to the author' section of this.

I've seen the quote about Rowling crying and saying "the person was definitely dead." What I'm particularly interested in more recently, though, are her answers to a number of questions during the World Book Day chat. JKR seems, as Amanuensis notes, to have no problem telling us flat out when something isn't important. And in the chat in question she said about Harry's grandparents, "They're all dead and not particularly important to the story." About Regulus (when asked if we'll be hearing more from him): "Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days." But when asked "If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?" she doesn't say anything like the previous two answers. No, "He's dead, and therefore not important." No, "He's dead, and I'm sorry, but we won't be seeing him again." Instead, she says, "I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself."

Interesting. We're also told that we'll learn more about the "Prank," and in response to, "Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad," we get: "I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]."

I don't know what any of this really means, and I've no idea what the actual answers are to these questions, but I must say that after all of that I'll be pretty amazed if Sirius is genuinely and completely gone from this story.

LK

Re: what the author says, and doesn't say

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much for quoting all the above--yes, that was exactly the sort of thing I was citing, but not everyone may have read those!

But when asked "If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?" she doesn't say anything like the previous two answers. No, "He's dead, and therefore not important." No, "He's dead, and I'm sorry, but we won't be seeing him again." Instead, she says, "I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself."

Exactly. There's the ambiguity to which so many of us subscribe! And with fair reason. That's the author herself speaking.

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

Counter: Avada Kedavra can hardly be the only spell with deadly potential. One does not need an electric chair to kill--a knife will do the same, wielded on a human body effectively, even if the electric chair was designed specifically to kill and the knife only as a cutting tool.

exactly! i've had this argument with my friends before, they insist that because avada kedavra is the an unforgivable and the only one of the three that kills (instantly, anyway) that it must be the only curse that kills.

avada kedavra is the only killing curse among the unforgivables, true, but i believe the reason for that is because, it's the only killing curse that cannot be blocked. moody states this in book four during harry's first dada lesson, another reason way it was so remarkable that harry survived: the curse cannot be deflected (except by odd golden statues in MOM).

hm, you've disabused me of my post-OotP hopes. rather unkindly, at that. i wonder why i like you. :)

intellectually i know that sirius must be dead, or something like it. but, it was so awfully painful that i still cling to the hope that JK Rowling will comeout with some massive press release equating to a 'just kidding'.

hah, anyway, nice counter arguments. it prob won't be any kind of a silencer to the mad debates around the fandom, but not even book seven will end those. there will always be that one person pinning a note to the fandom's door saying "hang on a minute ..." and hallelujah to that!

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Hallelujah indeed. Really, I'm seeing that plenty of people are grabbing both sides of these arguments and that makes me very happy, because I believe a fairly equal number of positives and negatives in all of these. It's nothing like simple.

Re: He's our dog now.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Hey, it's enough to turn any Sirius fan psychotic. Big time!

[justinetre.livejournal.com]

Christ, that is the best Sirius ever I've read! (and I've read many. very many)
I agree with everything you said, and you mentioned every point that I thought of myself and expnaded each idea into a fully formed thought, which I struggle with.
Thank you for writing this

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Thank you--I really have been trying to be comprehensive with all the arguments I've heard, plus the few that came to me that I've been too weepy and pathetic to voice before. ^_^

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

No tomatoes, none! It's cool. ^_^

Shame, I was going to cook some bollognez with them. ;D

It would make everything seem desperate, and heighten the fear for Harry. Which I think could be a great literary twist.

Yeah, but maybe TOO desperate? How knowledgable is Harry in this entire field? Let me rephrase this: Is anyone SO knowledgable in this field as Dumbledore is? He terminated the Voldemort of his time, he is a wizard the Voldemort of Harry's time fears, as well as Fudge's clique. He is experienced, older and wiser than anyone else in England (except, maybe, Nicholas Flamel). Don't diss the Dumbledore, he will kick your arse. >:D
And anyway, I don't think Harry really stands a chance at all without Dumbledore teaching him these next two years, to tell you the truth.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

No, Harry would be in some serious s**t if Dumbledore died--though I still maintain it would make the tone of the tale more desperate, as a result! That's just what I think.

[lady_songsmith]

Uhm, hi! I think this is the first time I've posted; I've been lurking for a while 'cuz I love your fic mightily!

This is a great set of arguments. Personally, I come in (reluctantly) on the 'he's really dead' side of the argument, based on JKR's statement that "the person" is "really dead." I'm upset about it, less because I loved Sirius -- he IS one of my favorite characters -- and more because I thought his death had way too many holes in it.

Your point #10 is my biggest peeve, actually. He's the secondary title character in PoA, for crying out loud, and she kills him two books later, having given us a total of maybe a dozen scenes with him? #12 and #6 are biggies for me, too. I hadn't considered the Dumbledore point, but it is a good one, in the classic Heroic Cycle. Of course, from where I sit, OotP was an attempt to derail the Heroic Cycle that had been building through the last 4 books, in some sort of misguided attempt to make the books 'older' -- but that's another rant. And of course, the whole scene sat poorly with me. I actually had to go back and reread it before I figured out he had 'died'(?); so much for the emotional impact. It had none of the strength of her usual writing.

I, too, would very much like to see JKR have the guts to kill off Harry at the end of Book 7, though I go back and forth on whether I think she will or not. However, if she does, I don't want to see some sweet other-side reunion with family and friends. I think that would change the tone of the ending from tragic heroic to movie-of-the-week cliche. There are enough hints dropped throughout the book that there is probably some sort of after-life, -world, what-have-you. Leave it ambiguous.

(P.S. Can I just squee! over your fics a bit? Squee!!!) :-)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

(*squees over the squeeing: squee! ^_^)

He's the secondary title character in PoA, for crying out loud, and she kills him two books later, having given us a total of maybe a dozen scenes with him?

That really, really hurt, yes! It's so hard to deal with that.

And I don't know if I can deal with the idea that Rowling might kill off Harry with anything like calmness, to determine whether I'd want to see an afterlife glimpse. Boo hoo!