I thought the Elder Wand business was one of the few things that did work out neatly, myself.

[amanuensis1]

Since DH I have seen a number of fanfiction stories that deal with Harry returning Draco's wand to him, as if it were just a kindness or a gesture, which has left me puzzled and wondering if these writers have missed something in DH. Draco's wand is the Elder Wand, which Harry says he will put away and not use, anticipating that if he dies a natural death the wand's power will be broken. Harry can't return Draco's wand to him without addressing that that wand is the Elder Wand. Am I the one who's confused?

Comments

[stinaleigh.livejournal.com]

I thought it was that Dumbledore's wand was the Elder Wand.

Draco had mastery of it after he had disarmed Dumbledore on the tower. However he still had his original wand.

Harry gained mastery of both wands (Dumbledore's Elder and Draco's original) when he disarmed Draco. So Harry ended up with 3 wands. He buried the Elder with Dumbledore, used Tom's, and possibly returned Draco's. Although I do sort of buy into the fanon notion that if Harry just gave the wand back, Draco wouldn't really have mastery of it.

I am truly going off memory of reading and discussion but I don't think I am bringing in any fanon.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

But Dumbledore's wand was no longer the Elder Wand when Draco defeated him. The Elder Wand transferred its powers to Draco's wand so that Draco's wand became the Elder Wand.

[gospikey.livejournal.com]

Harry expelliarmussed Draco's wand at the 'battle' in the Malfoy Mansion...? His school wand?

The Elder Wand is the wand buried with Dumbledore, who got it from Grindelwald...

Two different wands.

Spikey

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

No. Voldemort steals Dumbledore's wand from Dumbledore's corpse, but it's not the Elder Wand any longer because Draco has defeated him and Draco's wand has become the Elder Wand.

[capri-chan.livejournal.com]

What was Draco's original wand? Hawthorn?

If Draco earned his hawthorn wand - that is, disarmed/killed Harry - then the Elder wand would also belong to him, as well as the Phoenix Feather. But perhaps if Harry freely gives it to him, then only the Hawthorn wand is his, because that's what was given, and nothing else.

Or I've misunderstood what you wrote.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Ollivander identifies the Hawthorn wand that Harry shows him as Draco's. The Hawthorn wand is what Harry brandishes when he defeats Voldemort, and that's the wand he's describing as the Elder Wand when he was "The Master of the Elder Wand was Draco Malfoy," and then goes on to explain that he subsequently defeated Draco and has the wand now.

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

No, I think Draco's wand in these stories is the one he always used (that he bought before first year) and that Harry took when they escaped from Malfoy Manor and went to Shell Cottage.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, but that wand IS the Elder Wand! Because Draco defeated Dumbledore, so Dumbledore's wand which had been the EW transferrs its powers to Draco's wand--Draco's wand becomes the EW! Which, yes, Harry takes from Draco.

[literati.livejournal.com]

I thought that Voldemort had acquired the Elder wand from Dumbledore's grave and he used that in his final confrontation with Harry. The wand Harry holds is Draco's Hawthorn wand. I assumed that since he overpowered Draco, he had control of both wands.

Or I could be mistaken, I only read DH once.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Voldemort didn't get the Elder Wand from Dumbledore--he got the wand that HAD BEEN the Elder Wand, but Draco's wand became the Elder Wand when Draco defeated Dumbledore on the tower.

[son-of-darkness.livejournal.com]

Elder just refers to the type of wood the wand is made from - the Elder tree.

I think, as people have said, Draco's wand didn't actually become "the Elder wand", it just meant Draco had mastery of the Elder wand. Now that Harry has Mastery of it, giving Draco back his wand wouldn't mean Draco regains mastery, because he didn't "win" it back.

[son-of-darkness.livejournal.com]

And Voldemort is actually holding the Elder wand in the final battle - the reason it doesn't work for Voldemort is because Harry is its master.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I may be the one confused: am I mistaken in thinking that you believe that the elder wand can be different wands, depending on who's defeating whom? Because I'm pretty sure that the elder wand is a single wand, a wand made of elder, and that the owner of that wand must win it from its prior owner. The elder wand is only ever the one wand -- and so Draco's original wand, which Harry also masters, in addition to Dumbledore's erstwhile wand, could conceivably be returned to Draco.

I'd rather see Draco try to take it back by force, though, but maybe that's just me.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

The elder wand is only ever the one wand

No, see, I don't see that. The Elder Wand is a title, it seems apparent to me, and transfers its allegiance--transfers itself-- to the wand that wins the duel. Dumbledore's wand lost the ability to be the Elder Wand when Draco disarmed him, and Draco's wand became the Elder Wand.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

No, Draco's wand didn't turn into the Elder Wand. It remained the hawthorn wand and separate from the Elder Wand. The important thing is the real Elder Wand, the one buried with Dumbledore, transferred its allegiance to Draco after he disarmed Dumbledore on top of the Astronomy Tower. Voldemort took it, and had it with him, but because Harry had defeated Draco it then transferred its allegiance to Harry and couldn't be used against him. The two wands are separate things.

From DH:

"You still don’t get it, Riddle, do you? Possessing the wand isn’t enough! Holding it, using it, doesn’t make it really yours. Didn’t you listen to Ollivander? The wand chooses the wizard... The Elder Wand recognized a new master before Dumbledore died, someone who never even laid a hand on it. (Emphasis mine.) The new master removed the wand from Dumbledore against his will, never realizing exactly what he had done, or that the world’s most dangerous wand had given him its allegiance..."

Voldemort’s chest rose and fell rapidly, and Harry could feel the curse coming, feel it building inside the wand pointed at his face.

"The true master of the Elder Wand was Draco Malfoy." <-- Who had never touched it, according to the paragraph above, so the Elder Wand and the hawthorn wand can't be the same wand.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

The Elder Wand recognized a new master before Dumbledore died, someone who never even laid a hand on it. --See, to me that means, "You can't just go pick it up from Dumbledore's tomb and call it 'claimed'--Draco made the Elder Wand his without even touching the wand because he disarmed Dumbledore. He won the wand--won the allegiance of the wand--without even touching it." So Draco had never laid a hand on it to CLAIM it but had had it with him since then. The "never laid a hand on it" doesn't mean "has never lain a hand on it." That would be a different kettle of fish if Harry had said that, I agree.

[hpstrangelove.livejournal.com]

It's funny because I just listened to this on my MP3 player today as I walked. I've read it in the book and also listened to the CD, but I don't think I understood until today when I read/heard it for the third time.

The command over the power of the wand, i.e. who it is 'loyal' to, is the way I interpret it. The physical Elder wand is the one that Dumbledore was buried with and that Voldemort stole and had in his possession at the end.

However, its loyalty passed from Dumbledore to Draco when Draco 'beat' him on the tower. Then its loyalty passed to Harry when he beat Draco. Even though physically it was with Voldemort at the end, it would only do what Harry commanded.

Clear as mud now?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Um, yes, very. I'm still not seeing why everyone thinks Voldemort had the Elder Wand. He had Dumbledore's wand, but he did not have the ELDER wand any longer, because Draco's wand had become the Elder Wand.

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

Thinking about it, what I'm getting is this:

The Elder Wand is Draco's, but "Draco's wand" is not The Elder Wand. It meant that when Draco disarmed Dumbledore, he gained mastery of that specific wand, in addition to his own original wand.

So, Draco is in charge of two wands, and apparently *any* magical defeat of Draco involving wands switches the allegiance of the wands bound to him. At least, that's what Harry was banking on when he faced down Voldemort, when Voldemort was holding The Elder Wand, and Harry was holding "Draco's wand"...

And so in order for Draco to be able to use his own old wand properly again, he'd need to win it back from Harry... but that would make him master of TEW again. I've only seen one story that dealt with that rather problematic situation. And the solution was remarkably hot and kinky sex, so I was all good with that ;).

[scarletscarlet.livejournal.com]

(and while I was loading the page and taking ages to get back to it, gmth has phrased it far more succinctly :) )

[quill-lumos.livejournal.com]

The elder wand is the one that Voldie takes from Dumbledore's grave. Voldie uses it in the final battle against Harry. He cannot defeat Harry with it because Harry has Draco's wand, which he took from Draco, therefore becoming its master. This meant that because he defeated Draco and therefore won his wand (the Hawthorne one that Draco had always had) then he by default became the master of the Elder wand too.

The elder wand is the one that Harry keeps safe, thereby leaving him with two extra wands after he mended his own Phoenix feather one. At the end of the book Harry had three wands, Draco's Hawthorne one, his own which he had repaired, and the elder one which he vowed to keep safe.

Lucie

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

That's how I understand it as well.

Keep in mind this is my interpretation

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

The Elder wand is one wand made of Elder wood (...or whatever). It's allegiance can transfer (from Dumbledore to Draco to Harry) via some sort of magical defeat of the one who has its alligance (be it with The Elder Wand or not), but the 'power' of the wand stays with the one wand. The Elder wand was buried with Dumbledore, and Draco never touched it, but the wand was loyal to Draco. When Harry stole Draco's wand, the allegiance of the wand (that was buried with Dumbledore, now held by Voldemort) is with Harry. So the Elder Wand (loyal to Harry) is with Voldemort, Harry's wand is doing whatever at this point, and he's got Draco's wand.

At least...that's how I read it.

Re: Keep in mind this is my interpretation

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I swear I never saw it this way. I only see one sentence in all of the book that really does seem to put the kibosh on my interpretation--otherwise I'd still be insisting that my take is equally valid.

[no-mad-skillz.livejournal.com]

The Elder Wand is the Deathstick, which was given to one of the Peverell brothers ages ago. It is a specific wand. JKR has a little something on her website here. (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=25) Or, if you don't mind Wikipedia, there's a discussion of it here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Wand#Elder_Wand)

;)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the links! Based on the discussion here, I see one sentence in the book's text and only one which shows me my interpretation can't be equally valid, otherwise I'd still be arguing mine. ^_^

[cheshyre]

Tangentially related, if wands somehow recognize and will not act against an opponent who has mastered them, then what are the ethics of the school offering a dueling club? Or what about the DA? Are they all massive Darwinian power-games which will give certain students the ability to defeat any of their classmates while others will be doomed to second-class status?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

MY HEAD. OWWIE. :D

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

The Elder Wand doesn't transfer its power, it just changes its mind about who its owner is. Here's what happened:

1. When Draco took it from Dumbledore, the Elder Wand decided Draco was its new owner.

2. Draco didn't know about it and just kept using his own wand.

3. The Elder Wand remained in Dumbledore's crypt until Voldemort took it, but it still thought Draco was its owner and therefore just acted like a normal wand for Voldemort.

4. Harry took Draco's wand, and somehow the Elder Wand knew about it and decided Harry was now its owner. (I can't remember which happened first: Voldemort picking up the Elder Wand or Harry becoming its owner but that doesn't make a difference).

The Elder Wand is always the same physical wand, it just doesn't let anyone use its leet powers unless it considers that person its rightful owner, and the only way to convince it that you're its new owner is to defeat the previous owner (grave-robbing doesn't count). Draco's wand was always just Draco's wand, it's just that taking someone's wand - even if they own more than one, as Draco did - is a symbolic conquest that causes the Elder Wand to choose the victor as its new owner, even if the Elder Wand itself wasn't involved or present at the time.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I never even considered this was how it worked--I always assumed the Elder Wand transferred its power to the wand which defeated it. And the discussion here has revealed to me only one sentence which makes me say, "Ahhhh, that's why it has to be that way," otherwise I'd still be arguing that my interpretation was equally valid. ^_^ (And I still like my interp better.)

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

HA HA! I've been wondering about this ever since first reading teh Carpet Book. That is, wondering about this fuzziness more than almost any other plothole in DH. Conclusions so far:

1. JKR wrote a *most* unclear description! (how unusual *g*)
2. I wasn't the only one confused! (whew)
3. None of it makes sense... Unless y'all figured it out in the full threads; I only just read the main comments here.

4. I need a flippin' *diagram*! Maybe an animation too. (I can see it now: Elder, but no Wiser: the Vid)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I wasn't the only one confused! (whew)

I was apparently so confused that I didn't KNOW I was confused. :D

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

Just to add a little bit, it goes back to the story of the three brothers - the one who had the Elder Wand, the one who had the cloak of invisibility, and the third who had the resurrection stone.

Over the centuries, this story became a myth, a fable. But in fact, there was a true story underneath the guise. The 'fabled story' part of it was that "Death" gave them these objects as a prize, but it would seem that Dumbledore and Grindelwald and many others before them believed that the three Peverell brothers themselves were the ones who crafted these three objects - real and true objects - and the invisibility cloak that Harry owned, was that very same cloak from the original story.

They were always three distinct objects, one being an actual wand made of elder wood, with extraordinary powers above and beyond normal/usual wands in both its power and its sentience.

In a way, it's all rather grail-like. :-P

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yeah, none of that seemed confusing except I don't think I connected that "elder" was a kind of wood. It just seemed so evident to me that the power of the wand passes from wand to wand, once Voldemort revealed that, that I never stopped to wonder, just assumed the interpretation that readily came to me was correct. Almost everything in the text supported it, never countered it.

[leni-jess.livejournal.com]

Zooming straight past the issue of which wand was the Elder Wand (I believe this to be the one, physical, wand: the one Dumbledore had, that Draco mastered by killing him but never took, that Voldemort stole but didn't master – whether it was made of elder or simply 'oldest', which ain't true, but recognises its antiquity, and possibly = 'oldest now in existence')...

The issue of what happens to (the ownership/mastery of) a wand that is taken in a duel (real or play) or by other violence doesn't seem to be resolved in the text of the novels; the Elder Wand is a sort of special case. Because people are always disarming other people! from the Duelling Club on! Yet their wand performance doesn't seem to degrade. And if it did, as often as wizards fight, the bit of lore about wand mastery that Ollivander finally shares would hardly be much of a secret, yet it's stated to be little known.

So (apart from the issue of whether JKR dreamed this up just for the Elder Wand, and never thought back on what her characters had been doing through the previous six books) there must be, I thought, some kind of protocol wands recognise:

• A wand taken in practice (Duelling Club, DA, or private) knows it hasn't been mastered, because the fight isn't 'real' (in whatever sense wands perceive that, heh).
• A wand taken in a fight (whether physically picked up and taken away by the victor or not) ... Well, it should change masters, if the Elder Wand isn't a special case, but we haven't seen it happening. *thinks: has anyone in canon ever taken anyone else's wand in a fight before? Department of Mysteries debacle? Did anyone 'win' any of those fights? Dumbledore and Voldemort in the Ministry foyer had a sort of draw, though Voldemort backed off...* Maybe 'take in a fight' has to = 'had the ability to kill, even if not exercised', as with Draco and Dumbledore.
• There must also be a protocol wands recognise (if only for the convenience of the author!) that it's possible to return a wand to its previous owner, and consciously relinquish mastery, which reverts to the original owner (the wand might be a bit disgruntled about it, but it might be magically satisfied by some formality). When I wrote Harry returning Draco's wand in You Can't Always Get What You Want I decided that assumption was valid, but not everyone goes that way, I know. I mean, the alternative is for the wand to lie about, useless, in some drawer, getting dusty. Given what the damn things cost, some poverty-stricken parent is eventually going to give it to a kid (as Neville's gran gave Neville's dad's wand to him, though probably on sentimental grounds, and a lot of use it was, by all appearances, even if it didn't as per Elder Wand lore actually 'belong' to Bellatrix!), and everyone's going to have a totally wrong idea of the kid's abilities...

Wand allegiance

[zerl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this whole wand-allegiance business doesn't make a lick of sense...

I mean Voldemort's theory is obviously wrong -- actually it's *so* obviously wrong that you wonder why he bothers to kill Snape: if his theory about the previous owner having to be killed off were to hold, then why does he suppose *Dumbledore* was the true master of the Elder Wand before Snape killed him, when Dumbledore hadn't finished off Grindelwald? I'd buy "Oh, he just forgot" if only he hadn't seen Grindelwald himself *so* recently *and* killed him off himself. By his logic he has now bypassed Dumbledore and shouldn't have to worry about Snape, right? He claims he's been thinking about this issue long and hard, and given its importance I don't doubt that he truly has. So it just puzzles me that he could miss this little detail...

Then there's Harry's logic, which seems only a little less fraught than Voldemort's. For one thing, as many have pointed out, if disarming -- even "real deal" disarming, however you might define that -- were all it took for the Wand to change allegiance, the true Mastery of the wand would by now be side-tracked beyond all hopes of reconstruction. Plus if Voldemort stealing the wand from Dumbledore's grave made it so he wasn't the true owner, wouldn't Grindelwald's robbery (we see how he just stole it, without fighting for it) make *that* transfer of possession just as invalid? Come to think of it, if there's any truth to the story of the eldest brother, then the way *he* lost the Wand was exactly the same as Dumbledore's case: somebody heard him boasting about it and snuck up on him while he slept, murdering him (without fighting against his Wand, undoubtedly to circle around the "invincible wand" problem) and just taking it from the man's dead body. So the Wand hasn't been invincible for a long, long time? But still ended up resurfacing again and again in people's lores? Or what?

Personally my interpretation is "No one really knows how it happens, least of all Harry, and he's just bluffing in the final battle scene." It's easy to realize that Voldemort's reasoning doesn't hold any water, so if Harry caught on to that, he didn't have to come up with a valid theory. He knew already that Voldemort's wand must not be working any better now than before he killed Snape. You can easily imagine why Harry might think it'd be a good idea to make him further believe that it's *Harry* that the Wand is really alleged to. Of course, bluffing in that scene would involve Harry finally mastering Occlumency... But then he does manage to learn how to cast successful Unforgivables without training for it at all in DH, so... Who knows? For fic purposes, I'd say there's millions of possibilities to choose from.

[beckaandzac.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add to sensible types with books to hand above, but is all this talk of "wands" and types of "wood" making anyone else want porn? Possibly there could be porn that explains the disposition of the Elder Wand? Possibly I am just mentally fourteen.

[eeyore9990.livejournal.com]

The Elder Wand was frustrated. Ever since the wizard it belonged to had lost the ability to sustain an erection, it'd been out of regular use. It'd had a fleeting moment of hope when that pretty little blond twink* had defeated Ol' Limpy, but then they had buried it with the man who, while now satisfyingly hard, was less likely to actually use it for its intended purpose.

Distressing as it was to go into the darkness with a corpse, that was as nothing compared to the one who released it. If it hadn't been created out of a very hard wood, it would have fallen over limp from one look at the... thing... who took it.

The Elder Wand was not pleased and displayed its displeasure by refusing to do any magic for the noseless git who now carried it about. It yearned for its master to come and claim it. And then... to claim it and come. It waggled its handle at the mere thought of such a moment.

Then, the moment of greatest triumph came, and a different pretty little twink defeated the pretty little twink who had never so much as brushed its tip with a finger... but then that one didn't come for it either.

More frustrated than ever, the Elder Wand decided to sulk. When its true master arrived one night in the company of the one who possessed it, the Elder Wand decided to teach the boy a lesson and zap him but good... not enough to actually kill him, but more than enough to knock him completely senseless.

When the boy showed up later that evening, it flew happily into his hand when called, ready to forgive and forget. But then the boy started talking afterward about burying it so that it would never be found again and it knew it had to work quickly.

After all, it didn't mind being buried, per se, just where it was buried. No mucky ground for the Elder Wand, thank you very much.

When the boy sighed tiredly and started to bed, sandwich in hand, the Elder Wand slithered about in his pocket until it was lined up close to his cock. It was easy enough to do; the boy didn't even notice as he was climbing stairs when it moved. Just as the boy was stepping through a hole behind a portrait, the Elder Wand turned itself on, vibrating sexily against its master's other wand.

A sharp gasp sounded just before it was pulled from its master's pocket, bright green eyes sliding over it thoughtfully before the sandwich was discarded. Another short flight of stairs and the Elder Wand found itself in a room with several beds... and a satisfyingly kinky new master.

Oh, finally.

Later, as it found itself buried over and over again into a dark, hot, tight hole, the Elder Wand gave a shudder of relieved pleasure and spent a moment to ensure, through its inherent magic, that this master would never fall victim to impotence.

---

It's not much, but I'm in the midst of chewing my fingernails off to write fest fics, lol.