Had it been a different character, would you have been happier?

[amanuensis1]

themostepotente has a poll on her lj in which one of the questions asks, "If Rowling had chosen another male character [to be gay] in place of Dumbledore, who[m] do you wish it had been?"

I'm pretty happy with Dumbledore, myself. I mean, the most powerful wizard in centuries? The hero's mentor and most important father figure? (Yeah, I know, I still want Sirius to have been Harry's most important father figure, but that's me and my little world.) Deathly Hallows demonstrates that Rowling saw the books as being nearly as much about Dumbledore as about Harry (again I would have liked them to be more about Snape than Dumbledore but again that's another visit to Amy World), and for her to have crafted that particular character knowing that his sexuality leaned that way--well, yeah, I am pretty happy about that choice.

In fairness, sure, I'd pick Harry first. God, just imagine. Harry ends up kissing Draco Malfoy instead of Ginny Weasley. I'd have died of an ecstatic brain hemorrhage. Of course, that would have required a rewrite of the last two books--all to the good, because the Harry/Ginny romance remains gag-worthy (and not, repeat, NOT because it's het).

But I wouldn't pick Snape because I wouldn't want Snape to be "the gay one" all alone. It would suck for me, thinking, "Oh, great--Snape, the one who's sullen, dark, sneaky, grudge-holding, unfair, hated, picked on--let's get a few more negative stereotypes in here, shall we?" Shylockian, I would have called it. Whereas outing Dumbledore--Dumbledore, despite his not-so-pristine past and manipulative ways, comes off as fabulous. Stereotype, yes, but at least a positive one. Still stands on its own outside of that closet and happily kicks your ass if you protest. I mean, yes, I love Snape and imagine him as gayer than a treeful of monkeys but I want him to be outed with somebody, if that makes sense. In fact, by outing Dumbledore, it does call his intimacies with Snape into question. But by implying "Snape with Dumbledore," homosexuality would not be read as just one more dark aspect of Snape's character, done in this way.

Lupin, on the other hand, would have been fascinating. Imagine Rowling saying, "Lupin was not merely conflicted about his romance with Tonks because he thought he was too old and too poor." Imagine what that would have invited. Lupin got married despite having other leanings, became resigned to it after his son was born because it had brought at least one wonderful thing into his world. The idea rankles because it wears a little sheen of "reproduction good, so maybe gayness not so good" upon it--but it invites one to see bisexuality and homosexuality within the text even where there appears to be happy heteronormativity between couples. Loaded. Hugely loaded. But fascinating.

I feel about Sirius the same way I feel about Snape--don't let him be gay alone; put someone with him and I'd be happy. (Like Snape.) Yet it's not because of Sirius being thought of as a dark character, though--I wouldn't have liked the idea that he was conveniently killed off so that no one would have to resolve the idea of him being both gay and a parent/older brother/best buds figure to Harry. As if it were punishment. If he'd been paired with someone--Snape, Remus--then devoting that degree of depth in the story to two gay characters might have erased those "punishment" feelings. So it isn't just a good guys/bad guys thing here, in terms of whom to de-closet and what would avoid the negative stereotypes. Draco could have been gay and I wouldn't have winced. Lucius? Heck, Lucius would rival Dumbledore in fabulosity.

But I do like that it's a good guy, and a hugely significant character, and the most powerful wizard in ages. Yeah.

Comments

[phantomminuet.livejournal.com]

Me, too. But a gay (or bisexual) Lucius would rock, like a great big rockin' thing. :-D

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Exactly. He would be delightfully bisexual, like some rock god whose drug addiction pulls him down, but then he gets rehab and is okay. Wait, am I still using the right metaphors?

[sobriquet-99.livejournal.com]

Heh. I've always been bemused by the absolute ease with which fanon more-or-less simultaneously decided that Sirius and Lupin were both not only lovers at one point or another but bisexual. Thing is, it made perfect sense for them to be so. They both lean towards judgements based on the heart and spirit, rather than appearance or social convention (gee, why would the different people persecuted by society in general and the one's elegant, sophisticated, incredibly bigoted family in particular think beauty's only skin deep?) and I always loved that Tonks and Remus got together for pretty much the same reasons.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it was with ease! I think a lot of people were able to say, "Welllll...okay, Remus is bisexual," when Tonks happened along, but a lot of the others sat unhappily, muttering, "Jo killed Remus's gay, dammit. And by extension Sirius's gay." Perhaps there was a large contingency, before book 6, though, who did see both Remus and Sirius as bisexual; I dunno. I think the corner in which I hang about put forth the "gay for each other" vibe so strongly I'm not aware of the other corners so much.

[florahart]

1. One of my colleagues notified me this morning that Dumbledore was gay. Heh.

2. Can a brain hemorrhage be ecstatic? ...Well, I suppose that if it were hemorrhaging in a way that poked teh pleasure centers.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Sometimes the brain cannot contain all that ecstasy! Brain go blooey. ^_^

[spacefragments.livejournal.com]

gay!snape? do not want. xD
my vote was initailly for sirius and remus (in no particular order, but like you said-- together) but then i added draco, because... well, i don't particularly care which way he swings, but i would have no objections at all if he were gay. and i don't care enough about the rest of the characters to *wish* she had outed them. but about harry-- sure, it would have been nice if she outed harry (the wank would have been legendary), but... i don't see how the hell she could explain it, now that she's done with the books.

that said... a big part of me wants her to just leave the rest of the characters' sexualities undetermined. :D

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

sure, it would have been nice if she outed harry (the wank would have been legendary), but... i don't see how the hell she could explain it, now that she's done with the books.

No, not now that the books are complete, especially with that epilogue. The only way I can imagine Harry being gay was if the author really had an agenda to present, and I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily--agendas (agendae?) can prompt one into one's craft.

I know what you mean by leaving the rest of the characters' sexualities undetermined--she's given us one, now please let us play in our own imaginings, Jo, and don't give us hard-and-fast for the rest of the characters; you'll make us sad! :D

[venturous1.livejournal.com]

I've been ping-ponging around on this for the past few days:
con:
1. mad about the cheap publicity stunt aspect
2. too-little, too-late, why didn't it happen in the book(s)?
3. another sexless, celibate dead gay icon, *sigh*

But today the "pro" is been gaining a little ground. This has a huge impact on mass culture, something I have always been at one eccentric extreme of. It's my mission, fate and job as a creative to observe the culture, and lob creative instigation into the mix via our art and life.

So, the greatest wizard, much loved by millions of kids and grownups all over the world? This is a powerful statement for inclusion, delivered not from a soapbox, but almost subversively.

Even if it doesnt go far enough to heal all the ills of intolerance.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Hee, I'm having the opposite journey--I went from "What? Parts of slash fandom are unhappy about this? People, what more do you WANT?", but am seeing well-thought-out discussions on how it could have been even more positive if included in canon, which doesn't quite have me agreeing but I'm glad to understand why some people may not yet be satisfied. Heck, none of us are ever satisfied. Deep down I still wanna see Harry smooching Draco in that epilogue.

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

I still think Sirius and Remus were also gay, but what the hell, it's good to know that my post-OotP hunches were correct (and how could anyone have missed it in DH?). And seeing the splenetic reaction from so many quarters is, perversely, a joy to behold.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I am thrilled that this iconic character got this distinction because IMHO it really did not affect the story to see it subtextually rather than having it spelled out, and because it opens the door for speculation on every character. It matters. Jo didn't have to say this thing about Dumbledore but she did and, yeah. I imagine it felt like a small thing for her to have said as a person, but it's still bold for the author of the series of the decade to have said it. Yay.

[bernie-laraemie.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This is an excellent post, my feelings exactly. You are wonderful, and not just because your writing is made of awesome. :)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, does this reflect how you feel about it, too? Nifty! :D *hugs*

Of course, if anyone disagrees, the discussions around here are usually polite and interesting and I learn stuff, so, yeah, those are welcome too! ^_^

[bernie-laraemie.livejournal.com]

Oh, also, if it had been someone else we would still not know why Albus Dumbledore hired dumb-as-a-post Gilderoy Lockhart.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I really do want to see Dumbledore/Lockhart fic now, oh, I DO!

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty happy with Dumbledore, myself. I mean, the most powerful wizard in centuries? The hero's mentor and most important father figure?

Wordy McWord.

And you know, I can't wait for next year's Pride Festival. I wonder how many Dumbledores we'll see!

As for Sirius...I still say he's gay or bi until proven otherwise. Bikini girl posters are not proof.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heck, I'm waiting for Harry to go clean up Sirius's room and peel off one bikini girl poster and discover: "Holy shit, there's a centerfold from Manly Wizard Men underneath! Sirius, you closeted cunt, you!"

[hey-mockingbird.livejournal.com]

all to the good, because the Harry/Ginny romance remains gag-worthy (and not, repeat, NOT because it's het)

THANK YOU. I am the only one out of my friends whoargues that H/G is sickly not because of the het, but because of the fact that his interest in her came out of FREAKING NOWHERE and then disappeared and then all of a sudden came back! I was like....wait.....where did she COME from!?

Anyway, that's my two cents about THAT.

And onto the topic that the post was ABOUT, I like Dumbledore being gay for the reasons you state--powerful wizard, father figure, and an amazing person. And I thikn it's kinda sweet. That is all.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

After book 5 I looked about at what had happened in Harry's love life and thought, "Okay, the only female character besides Cho with whom he's got any fond emotional involvement up to this point is Hermione. Either it's Hermione or Rowling's going to have to make some amazing character development occur within two books with whatever girl Harry will fall for, to make us believe she's worth it." And she didn't. Bleagh.

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

I'd have liked it if someone who didn't get killed off had been revealed to be gay, but I've been liking the idea of gay!Dumbledore more and more. After all, he wasn't a disenfranchised, unhappy loner; he was a respected, even adored, authority figure who lived a long and full life.

It does rather make Our Minerva seem a bit of a fag hag, though.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, I've been writing Dumbledore and Minerva's conversations in my head since that big reveal. :D

[ellid.livejournal.com]

I could have sworn Lupin WAS gay, or at least a walking metaphor for AIDS, and I felt that way long before Cuaron made it explicit in the movie. I'm all but convinced the reason that Rowling forced that ridiculous "love story" with Tonks on him was because she got wind of just how many people agreed, and decided to make him safely het.

And didn't his reaction to his marriage and to Tonks in general *sound* like a closeted gay or bisexual man being forced pretty much forced into a nice, safe, heteronormative relationship, complete with a baby conceived either on or just before his wedding night?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I would like to think that Rowling's given us one thing that opens the door on speculation, including characters like Remus, and that she does not intend to spell it out everywhere because that sort of ruins the opening of the door. I guess I'll see if that holds true through future interviews!

[mybrokenlocket.livejournal.com]

Your second paragraph has led me to the conclusion that Amy World is superior to JKR World on many accounts. May I come visit?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

AMY WORLD IS AWESOME. YOU ARE WELCOME. ALL WHO COME WITH GOOD INTENTIONS ARE WELCOME! :D

[demonqueen666.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty happy with Dumbledore, myself. I mean, the most powerful wizard in centuries? The hero's mentor and most important father figure?

It probably shows how only semi-familiar I am with the way this fandom goes that it never even occured to me when the news broke that the slashers would be complaining about JKR outing Dumbledore. I mean, sure, I was all set for some sort of wankstorm from the "OMG GAY IS ICKY" corner, but complaints about it having been too subtextual, or the wrong character, or whatnot?? Yeah, never occured.

Oh, HP fandom. You so crazy.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I love my crazy fandom. If it can't see all sides of a thing, good and bad, it wouldn't be fandom. Seriously, I think controversy is a sign of a healthy thriving fandom. Kinda weird.

[dancing-moon.livejournal.com]

I'm happy about Dumbledore. I just want Snape to also be canonically gay - or at least not pathetically stalkerish about Harrys mom -_-

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

No disagreement there--I know that when The Big Reveal showed up, my reaction (well, after, "No one CARES, he's DEAD now, why didn't you tell us all this before you killed him, ya nut") was, "Annnnnnd he's in love with Lily. Yep, we had that one on our list." Though there were surprises--I remember my "Oh!" moment when it hit me--in the middle of a room of fans--that "Snape's Worst Memory" was his worst memory not because he was humiliated by James but because it was the moment he called Lily a Mudblood.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

This post is so beautiful. *wipes tears away* I could not agree more if I had crawled inside your brain and used your fingers to type it myself.

Erm... which I didn't. Nobody saw me, you can't prove anything.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

So that's why I was compelled to write this yesterday! Dammit, gimme back my remote control--I need my brain for...well, makin' lasagna, or something, once in a while.

[ter369.livejournal.com]

(Yeah, I know, I still want Sirius to have been Harry's most important father figure, but that's me and my little world.)



..... in which I am a citizen. ::applies for passport::

[gospikey.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear.

Spikey

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I feel about Sirius the same way I feel about Snape--don't let him be gay alone; put someone with him and I'd be happy. (Like Snape.)

I <3 you!

You know what baffles me? All of these people that MOANED and WHINED because there were no homosexual characters. JK gives us DD (okay, admittedly, not my first pick), and these people ARE STILL NOT FUCKING HAPPY. Unbelievable!

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I do believe that a fandom that chews over every little thing and sees the good and bad in everything is an active fandom, so, at least we're healthy, if not necessarily happy! :D

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

I think Albus was the best choice based on the reasons you outlined for the other candidates -- they all have too many "negatives."

And despite the fact that I am a rampant proponent of gay!Horace (and everyone has been asking me this question) I'm glad it wasn't him. Another negative.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I do love Horace and can imagine him quite easily as gay, but, ohhhh, can you imagine how exponential the "pedophile" wank would have been over that one?

[beckaandzac.livejournal.com]

I'm so with you about Remus, and you've perfectly outlined the reasons why. I think there's a really valid view of Remus and Tonks' relationship as inherently queer (werewolf! metamorphmagus!), if apparently part of a heteronormative context. And Remus/Sirius was my gateway drug.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I think the door's been opened for us to imagine any characters are gay or bi, because of this admission. I mean, yes, we did that anyway, but now it's as if we're being told that indeed, it is not just in our heads and fantasies! 'M all over the Remus/Sirius, myself. They were, up to Book 6, my subtextual gay couple, and still are to some degree.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I say we have two gay characters.

Dumbledore.

And Percy.

*waves tiny Percy banner*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heck, I think we have tons of gay characters! Outing Dumbledore invites us to see it subtextually wherever we like and (this is the key thing) not be told, "You're crazy. No one's gay. It's a children's book. It's a heteronormative universe." Now we can fire back, "Not crazy at all!"

[nuuk.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with everything.

Snape, Sirius and Lupin - the evident gay characters (at least as long as the fandom is concerned...) would all have been bad choices. Ok, Dumbledore's only(?) love was his life's greatest tragedy (oh - wait - so was Snape's!) and he lived long and lonely life (oh - wait - so did Snape!), but then again. An exiled werewolf with an AIDS metaphor? An embittered man who has been imprisoned for 12 years and then gets killed by a veil...?

If it had been Snape/Sirius/Lupin, the headlines would even have been more mean. And to think about it - before Dumbledore was announced gay, no one did say a bad word about his asexual life... and now when he actually has a sexuality, it suddenly is a Huge thing! So, I don't want to imagine how HUGE thing it would have been with a greasy double agent potion master or with Teh Metaphor werewolf. (Nope - I never did see any kind of a metaphor nor do I see now, but it sure would have been brouhgt up at some point.)

Uh, and Dumbledore is dead? Yep? So is pretty much every meaningful character outside the trio era.
Dumbledore did not have a "normal affair"? Hmmh, nor did Snape, Lupin, Sirius, or pretty much no one outside the trio era.
Funny how people tend to forget those tiny details...


If it had been any minor character, it would not have mattered (ofc it would have in a way, but... I think you know what I mean). JKR would have been hated in the both sides - for conservatives for putting a gay character in the books, for liberals that the character was so minor (as they always are!!111).

As you said - it's a good guy, and a hugely significant character, and the most powerful wizard in ages. Yep. I think Dumbledore was a terrific choice.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Uh, and Dumbledore is dead? Yep? So is pretty much every meaningful character outside the trio era.

Exactly. Sirius, Lupin, and Snape! Migod! They're all dead and I never would have anticipated that. Don't like it, either, but I can't see that "he's dead" arguments could be answered with anything but a non-dead character. (Those who would have liked to see someone young and hot as the outed character, okay, I see where you're coming from.)

[bewarethesmirk.livejournal.com]

I personally am so conflicted about Dumbledore's character after DH, that's it's hard for me to reconcile Jo's announcement. I'm happy there is a gay character, and I'm happy it's Dumbledore...I just hate Dumbledore for the way he manipulates Harry and Snape -- more than he had to for the good of society.

I agree with almost all of your thoughts. Thank you for making sense of my own muddled mess of a brain.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yeah, those people who firmly hate Dumbledore--their unhappiness, I get. Definitely. I don't think Jo feels that way, of course, and she probably also assumes most people see him the way she does. (I think that's so, myself.)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm popping out of my small dark corner again....

There is just something about this debate that makes me have to post [and dance, but you can't see that part].

Anyway, looking back, it seems kinda obvious that Albus was gay all along, doesn't it? Those insanely colorful outfits? The velvet suit he wore in the Tom Riddle flash back? The high-healed boots? JKR could have been talking about my gay brother - he was quite the fashio-plate, too.

And who says that Grindelwald was Dumbledore's only relationship? What about Doge? See Chapter Twenty Eight [page 563 of the US edition]:

"Elphias Doge mentioned her to us," said Harry, trying to spare Hermione.
"That old berk," muttered Aberforth, taking another swig of mead. "Thought the sun shown out of my brother's every oriface, he did."

I had wondered about Doge's dog-like loyalty to Dumbledore in book 7 - but it would make sense if they had been lovers. Although it appears that Doge was more emotionally invested that Dumbledore. No wonder he was so emotional when confronted by Rita at the Wedding!

And just because JKR announced that Albus definately WAS gay doesn't mean that everybody else is definately straight. There are dozens of characters that we don't know well enough to determine their sexual orientaions. [Although personally, I view McGonnegal as a hellion under all that starch]

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Definitely agree--Dumbledore being in love with Grindelwald doesn't mean he was celibate for the rest of his life, and the announcement on Dumbledore doesn't mean everyone else is straight; it opens up the world to the possibilities, on the contrary. ^_^

[capri-chan.livejournal.com]

(Icon not directed at you. I just really like it)

Just now, you have explained exactly why I like the idea of Dumbledore being gay as opposed to quite a few other people. Except you said it better than I could have.

Though, yes, gay or bi Lucius would be DELIGHTFUL.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

(I have that icon loaded on my IJ, hee!)

I maintain that Lucius will do anything if it's pretty. :D