The "For him?" scene and the only read I can possibly get from it.

[amanuensis1]

DH gave us backstory about Snape's motivations, so, when JKR in her interview yesterday reaffirmed what DH told us, I didn't raise any eyebrows at it. Now, if you didn't like that backstory, then, yeah, I can't help, but for those who are thinking (and fuming) that her interview answers cut away at Snape's character, here's what I have to say.

Yes, Snape's motivation to save Harry was Lily. DH told us that. JKR stated yesterday that if Snape had not loved Lily he would not have acted to save Harry. I don't find this upsetting. It's like asking if Hermione's initials weren't HG, would she have monogrammed her towels with the initials HG. No, likely she wouldn't have.

Motivation starts somewhere. That does not mean that motivation remains the only factor, especially as years and years of one's life go by. See, everybody's talking about the scene when Snape produces a doe Patronus in response to Dumbledore's question if he's starting to care about Harry. To me it's evident that Snape did that in order to shut Dumbledore up because Snape doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't want to think about it, wants the fucking subject changed. And when he produces that Patronus, Dumbledore concedes; Dumbledore is admittedly tearful at Snape's steadfastness to Lily but also at Snape's refusal to see himself as a man who can change, who can let go of his hatred, who can do good for good's sake. And Dumbledore is thinking, "Yes, that's your Patronus. Impressive. But not an answer to the question, Severus. Still, I'll let it go. If I press you on this you'll only grow angrier."

Snape's distraction with the Patronus at that moment to me is perfect evidence that he has indeed shifted in his motivations--that they are indeed more complex than his devotion to Lily, even if they began that way--and that Snape, our wonderful prickly sour Snape, can't come near to acknowledging it.

Comments

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

Well said. And just because he thinks those are what his motivations are, we take it as read that that's really what they are? Of course he doesn't really know his own mind, that's basic psychology (she opined).

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

Which is not to say his motivations weren't founded/grounded in the Lily thing, just that everyone's motives are more complex than they think they are.

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

This is how I see it too.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

It's been hard for me to put it into words because it seemed obvious and seemed to defy explaining.

[rhiannonmr.livejournal.com]

Agreed. His patronus at that point was to stop the interrogation. I do believe Snape was a tad more complex than he wanted to show anyone including Dumbledore.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

His patronus at that point was to stop the interrogation.

Snape wanted Dumbledore to see it as the Smart Bomb of arguments, but instead Dumbledore saw it for the decoy it was. ^_^

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Snape's refusal to see himself as a man who can change, who can let go of his hatred

Wow, this is fascinating, because I read the scene the opposite way. Like you, I read Snape as using the Patronus to shut up Dumbledore's accusations of caring about Harry. But I read the rest of the scene as Dumbledore doubting Snape's capacity to truly change ... his questions about Snape's concern for Harry thus read to me as more teasing than serious.

Whereas Snape is insistent that he has changed. When Dumbledore points out that Snape has already seen many people die, Snape is the one to retort, "Lately, only those whom I could not save." That to me is actually the most important line in that scene, because it shows that Snape himself is aware of his moral evolution ... more aware than Dumbledore, perhaps.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, yes, that line. That was one of the moments that I saw that Dumbledore and Snape were truly reversed--not just "Snape is on the good guys side," but that he was a more emotional soul than Dumbledore was, and that was remarkable for me.

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

Nicely said, my dear. Nicely said.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I love my big bully Snape. ^_^

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

I think people were more put off with the fact that she so insistently wants people to dislike him. Yeah, he's a bully. Yeah, he's a jackass. I probably wouldn't like him if he were nice, but she's quite set on the "hardly anything redeemable about him" thing.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I like to think that she is not trying to present him as a guy we should love, knowing his flaws. Of course, that could be completely Polyanna of me and maybe she really does not have a clue how her writing has constructed this character for her readers.

[atalantapendrag.livejournal.com]

One thing that gets me... why is it noble for Lily to save Harry out of love, but selfish for Snape to protect him out of love for Lily? Are we supposed to believe that maternal love is somehow more inherently honorable?

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I think in the context of these stories much is made of familial love and the love of friends (Harry for Hermione and Ron). Whether Snape's love for Lily was romantic love or the love of a friend or whatever, I don't understand why it should be a lesser love.

In some ways, Snape's love from afar of a woman he can never have, who inspires noble action is a tad like courtly love.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

Motivation starts somewhere. That does not mean that motivation remains the only factor, especially as years and years of one's life go by.

Thank you. I completely agree. I've said since this book came out that for Snape to have been on the light side, to have protected Harry only because of his love for Lily made him a weak character. One-dimensional. And I didn't like that. I have a lot more respect for a character that would see someone like Lily and maybe use her ideals and beliefs as a jumping board for his own change of values, his own rethinking of his actions. So while he might indeed still love her, his actions would be his own, stemmed in his decisions, also his own.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

He's not a thing that loves Lily. He's a person, and we know how complicated that has to be. ^_^

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Admittedly, I've not quite caught on to just what about Snape in the book and about JKR's interview is ruffling so many shiny pelts in fandom. Though not giving a damn and no canonical credence to interview evidence helps, probably.

While I wasn's so hot on the whole Lily thing (I read fanfic like that way too often), I'm pretty fond of Snape's dilemma in matters Harry - he *is* the son of his best friend/beloved, but also the cause of her death, and the spitting image of his rival. I *like* that :).

That's by no means saying that I don't think his reaction to Dumbledore's question whether he's coming to care for Harry is unambiguous. Fondness or not (and I'm tending towards not), Snape is genuinely shocked at what seems to be in store for Harry - he doesn't mince words there, and I still can't read the words along with the Patronus as totally unambiguous. There are no end of emotional nuances between spitting hatred for Harry and loving affection, and boy, Snape's seen him grow up, and thinks he knows what will happen... there's no better time for nuances, ever.

What gets me far worse in retrospect is that Snape dies thinking that with his parting gift, he's handed Harry (in all likelyhood) his death sentence... The cruelty of that is downright beautiful :).

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

YES. He knows it. Knows it's something he never wanted to happen. And the idea that he may have died assuming that Harry could not be saved...oh, man, that hurts.

[oblomskaya]

I agree. But nevertheless, that final "Always" could be read as a clear signal that she's still his main motivation. On the other hand, yes, she remains his fixation, but more things have been added to it, he's just fed up with opening his soul in front of Dambledore. (It's a very parent-child relationship still.)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I agree he thinks it's his main motivation and it may indeed be. As you say, though, more has been added to it. ^_^

[logospilgrim.livejournal.com]

I shall echo the words of others... Beautifully said.

I am reminded of what Dumbledore told Snape: "My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?"

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I thought of you specifically, Professor, with all of our concerns that JKR really may not understand what a character she has created in Snape. That she's not merely being coy about him, and how difficult it is for a writer to be uncomprehending about why one of her creations means so much to us. I'm so glad Snape's journey proved to be all we expected it to be (though we were never in doubt, were we? ^_^ )!

My deep affection for you.

[meri-oddities.livejournal.com]

Well said. I like the idea it was a distraction rather than an answer. I wonder if Harry saw it that way. Or maybe, figured it out later in his life.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Harry had to download SO MUCH INFO in that chapter, poor lamb. ^_^ A miracle he knew what to make of it.

[melannen.livejournal.com]

When I read that chapter - I definitely saw hints of a deeper motivation, and changes in Snape, and especially the 'for him' line - not for Harry doesn't actually automatically mean 'for Lily', after all - and it's certainly possible that Snape would've made it seem simpler because of his less-than-generous estimation of Harry's mental capacity - there's dozens of ways to fanwank it. But I also definitely got the vibe that the scenes were *intended* to make the audience think that it was all about him not being over Lily - and I had a major problem with that, in terms of both character and believability.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Once again we trot out the whole argument against author intent as opposed to what gets on the page. ^_^

[longleggedgit.livejournal.com]

Well said. I couldn't agree more. :)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I'm glad others feel similarly!

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

have you read http://rexluscus.livejournal.com/254445.html ? I liked it muchly.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, as a matter of fact, that was where I was trying to articulate this idea (and not doing it very well)! ^_^

[cesario.livejournal.com]

Precisely. I think of Dumbledore's words in OOTP: "I defy anyone who has watched you as closely as I have---and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined----not to wish to prevent you more suffering." Snape's been watching Harry pretty damn closely, and as it's now canon that his heart is not, in fact, three sizes too small, the conclusion seems obvious.

[irana.livejournal.com]

I agree. This is the same man who made Albus promise to never tell anyone - especially Harry - that he was protecting Harry. He would then turn around and admit that he cared for the boy why?

[ktoth04.livejournal.com]

*two thumbs up*

[shezan.livejournal.com]

At one stage Snape says to Dumbledore "All the ones I couldn't save." talking about Muggles killed by Voldemort. That's far beyond the "just-for-Lily" motivation.

[venivincere]

He is not a man who would ever say in words "I love you"; his actions will always tell the truer tale. He uses subterfuge like other people use oxygen, but of course, Dumbledore understood it for what it was. Your reading makes perfect sense to me. :-)

[cricket-cat.livejournal.com]

I agree that Lily isn't Snape's only motivation by the end of the series. His "only the ones I couldn't save" comment and his genuine disgust at the idea of Harry having to die shows that he's come a long way from the day he first came to Dumbledore. However, one of the things I really wanted from Snape in book 7 was for him to stop seeing Harry as the second coming of James, and I'm not sure that happened. What clenches it for me is when Snape finds Lily's letter and the picture and rips Lily out of it, casually throwing the James and Harry half to the side. That comes pretty late in the game, after the Patronus scene. If he's come to care for Harry at all, he's buried it deep, deep down where not even he is aware of it. Maybe in the final moments of his life when he looks into Harry's eyes, he's finally letting himself see the part of Harry that is Lily, I don't know.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Well - but it also comes *right after* he's killed Dumbledore. He's emotionally distraught and the whole thing has, I would say, come crashing down on him all over again. (And besides, he had to face Moody's booby trap.)

To me, what is moving about Snape as Rowling has presented him is that he is so absolutely impoverished; he has had so little in his life, yet ultimately he gives everything he has to those he knows hate him, for the sake of love. This is the definition of a Saint. In my tradition, the Saints are often imperfect and limited people, but they still allow their lives to be ruled by love, which transforms them. Thus Severus.

And I, too, thought this conversation was key in showing his emotional growth. It isn't surprising that he would have regressed a bit at the time of the murder, is it?

[orpheus-samhain.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why would Snape or anyone else risk their life for a person they don't care about. So the answer is 'of course not'. Does this alone makes him a bad person? I don't think so. Everybody needs some motivation. Also it's impossible to not care for a person you get to know, even if the relationship is very hard. Besides it was really extreme change: from 'save' to 'send to death' so Snape's reaction might have been of pure surprise and anger that he was tricked into doing something else than he signed for. Although I don't think so. I think he distiguished between good and evil and sending anybody for a journey DD planned was really shocking.

[flammablehat.livejournal.com]

There's lots of Snape interpretations (post J.K.R bashing) out there, and this one makes plenty of sense. And I agree with it, because I want to...but when it comes to irrefutable certainty as it pertains to his character, I'm not sure looking at him straight on will offer up anything definitive to point to.

Haven't we always gotten better cues for specific characters off of other characters? If Harry, who has seen all the same memories concerning Snape we have, walks away from the experience naming his child after the man (sort of), well...doesn't that mean something? It didn't sound like a case of Harry being the bigger man, and I don't think he's silly enough to carry a torch for Snape's unrequited lurve for his mom (weird much?), or stupid enough to just assume Snape not wanting him to die=lots of repressed affection. It seemed like whatever Snape was at the very end, Harry understood. They came to a pseudo accord, or something, where we stopped seeing ev0l!Snape through Harry the child's eyes, and saw the full picture of his behavior without resentment.

I don't know. I thought I was going somewhere with this, but the well's gone and run dry on me. Quick! Somebody finish the thought!

[jeddy83.livejournal.com]

This is pretty much what I think too. Whether she intended to or not, JKR delievered some wonderfully complex human characters with all sorts of internal conflict going on. I can't help but think it's a bit shallow to view it any other way.

[nimblelads.livejournal.com]

Exactly. That's how I saw it, too. I really think Snape's snapping Phinneas' head off for using the word "mudblood," the quote about "only the ones I couldn't save," Harry's ultimate tribute in naming his son after him, and Harry's final words on his bravery made it clear beyond a doubt.

The thing that I don't really get is people's rage at JKR for saying that Snape is courageous yet still spiteful, nasty, etc. Look, I adore Snape. He and Harry are my favorites. HOWEVER, I remember what he has done, too. It's easy to forget it, but... He was appallingly cruel to Harry, a boy who was orphaned and shoved in a fucking cupboard as a result of Snape's actions. It was inadvertent but what does that matter in the end? He despised Harry on sight for his own selfish reasons, James was still dead as a result of his actions, and Snape still chose to besmirch his name to a kid who had nothing left of his dad but his own desperate belief in his goodness. Not to mention all the other shit he gave him. As DD said, he saw what he wanted to see.

Petty? Spiteful? A bully? HELLZ YES.

And yet, he's amazingly brave. The thing is, I love him this way. He's a seriously fucked up guy, and I give mad props to JKR for acknowledging this and not destroying his character through some sappy I-repent-everything redemption.

Ah! Not to mention Neville! Can't forget him.

I think the point JKR is trying to make is you can be a nasty piece of work and still find the motivation to do the right thing. Ah, those lovely shades of gray...