Putting a positive spin on it.

[amanuensis1]

I have decided that, if the film of GoF is uncanonically portraying Durmstrang and Beauxbatons as old-fashioned in their lack of co-educational status, this means that the homoerotica in both schools is rampant--and that Hogwarts is by comparison a hotbed of progressiveness and so there's even less homophobia there than we slashers pretend, in our giddy fandom brains.

So meh.

Comments

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I can see some reasons for that; what are yours?

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Well, basically, the domination of teenage boys of the co-ed system. In the mixed-gender schooling, boys dominate the playground spaces, they dominate the classroom, they dominate teacher time in and out of the classroom, and 90% of the time school administrators spend on discipline is on boys. As much as the girls are a distraction for the majority of them (ie- an audience to display their burgeoning heterosexual mascuilinity to) the boys can also be a serious distraction to the girls (nevermind sexual harrassment in the classroom). This detracts from the education of both sexes.

I just think they need to be put someplace where they can do all that teenage-boy shit away from girls who are trying to grow up themselves and get a half-decent education. And yeah, this is both personal experience and research I have read into the phenomenon. This whole idea that "girls and boys need to mix to learn how to deal with the opposite sex" is a load of backward heterosexist patriachal bullshit. The only thing girls tend to learn when they're subjected to the co-ed system is how to allow boys to dominate (because of both flaws in the education system and serious social flaws in the wider cultures) and the only thing boys learn is how to get away with shit like that. All it does is perpetuate destructive gender stereotypes and, frankly, casts a rather negative and in most cases, incorrect assumption about girls and boys who don't attend co-ed school (eg - "So-and-so's school is full of lesbians/homosexuals because its not co-ed", "They're such sluts because they go to a non co-ed school and don't know how to act around boys" etc etc).

I'm not saying it's all 100% like this, but overwhelmingly it is. There are some schools (high schools, I'm mostly talking about) where it isn't like this, through both the certain backgrounds of the children and things taught by the school (eg - studies of gender classes alongside sex-ed classes that discuss things like homosexual sex, pleasure, and respect for partners). But sadly, they're the minority.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, I anticipated some of these reasons, because I've heard them and I believe there's much truth in it. It is hair-tearing, is it not, that both systems have their weaknesses and are criticized as though one was "right" and the other was "wrong," depending on how you see it?

I wish this were not so. I wish that dividing children on the basis of gender for their education was as ludicrous as dividing them on the basis of height or eye color or what have you--that gender did not matter. But it isn't ludicrous; it isn't simple. The saying goes, treating people equally does not mean treating them identically, and gender is one of those factors where educational needs may indeed be different.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

It is hair-tearing, is it not, that both systems have their weaknesses and are criticized as though one was "right" and the other was "wrong," depending on how you see it?

Depends. In a lot of mainstream society (that perpetuates the sexist/heterosexist values children learn to conform to in co-ed schools so spectacularly) in Australia, co-ed is conisdered best for the stupid reasons I mentioned. In certain classes single-sex is considered better, mostly because single-sex schools are seen as somehow being of a higher standard than co-ed schools curriculum wise, which is also not always true. Single-sex schools can still be sexist. I know mine was, and I didn't mention that in my previous rant. But yeah, I found co-ed schools to be moreso because of the patriachal bullshit.

It matters, in the end, because gender matters, just as much as sexuality matters, just as much as race matters, because people make it matter. Not a nice thought, but *shrugs*.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Edit: Oh yeah, and by my school being "sexist" I mean it was pretty much a slightly watered-down version of movie!Beauxbatons. Y'know, we couldn't wear slacks or do manual vocational courses, I got shit even from the teachers because I didn't shave my legs, several lesbians were expelled in my time there, etc etc etc. They even tried to dictate what colour bras we were supposed to wear to school because they were too stupid to make decent shirts that you couldn't see through when it rained. *rolls eyes*

[nightbluesprite.livejournal.com]

Your school sounds awful.

Am I, as a girl who went to a co-ed series of schools, odd for thinking mainly of the interactions I would have missed by going to an all-girls school? I can certainly understand what you're saying about teenage boys, but frankly, not all of them are like that, and I enjoyed spending time with those who weren't.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Of course not. There are always those who aren't like the generalisations I'm making, and I probably missed out on some experiences not continuing my high school education with co-ed just as I missed out on a mass of experiences not starting my high school education with single-sex (I've had experience in both). I don't regret either experiences and can't imagine my life currently without them.

It's not odd, and quite understandable, but I'm talking more about generalised gender and educational reasons to keep the two apart, rather than minority personal experiences. At least in Australia, there is a mass of research that says exactly the same things I do - that boys are privileged constantly in co-education systems (at least, before tertiary education) and that because society is not about to have a gender revolution and change these problems anytime soon, it's better to have the genders seperate for a secondary education experience that's deemed "better" in terms of quantative education and qualitive socialising for both genders.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

And it's not as awful as it sounds. Similar sorts of things happened at the co-ed school after I left (I still communicated with some friends there) but girls could still do thinks like manual-ed, even if they copped a lot of sexist flak from the boys for doing it. A gay boy was expelled after he got into a fight with a straight boy who baited him with homophobic insults (straight boy was allowed to stay, though). Girls still couldn't wear slacks, though I don't know if they tried the bra regulations (which never worked at the single-sex school I went to anyway. I still wore purple bras ;) ). There were as many/more sexist things happening at the co-ed school as there were at the single sex one, and in both it was perpetrated by the students and the staff. I just think those sorts of sexist examples that occur at most single-sex school are far less damaging than the kinds encountered at co-ed schools by most students, but that doesn't change the fact they are damaging (it can get pretty horrible at single-sex boys schools in my area).

[nightbluesprite.livejournal.com]

Looking back, I can see how my schools could have been so much worse. I never paid specific attention to how sexist my school was when I was in elementary or middle school, but I never felt as though girls were held back in any way whatsoever then, and it'd be hard for me to find fault with them now. What you've said makes me wonder about which of our educations was more of the norm in terms of descrimination.

[marksykins.livejournal.com]

Yeesh. I'm rather happy that the most oppressive thing that happened in my all-girls (Catholic, mind!) high school was watching a nun put a condom on a banana, then tell us that we should never, ever do this. It was like sex ed by passive aggression. It was mortifying then, but my hindsight tells me that since the nuns weren't allowed to teach us about birth control without lambasting it, that was the only way they could teach us to learn things properly.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I'm rather happy that the most oppressive thing that happened in my all-girls (Catholic, mind!) high school was watching a nun put a condom on a banana, then tell us that we should never, ever do this.

That is so hilariously brilliant XD. Mine was a Catholic all-girls as well. Except I got in trouble when I put up my hand in sex ed class and asked why the diagram of the clitoris was wrong XD.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid of the answer, but, why'd you get in trouble? Did you ask why it wasn't pierced, or something?

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I asked why they didn't show all of the internal parts of it, since they showed all of the internal parts of the penis & male genitalia. The teacher said "What internal parts?" and I said something like "The 90% of the clitoris that is in the body", or something similar. The teacher then got infuriated and sent me out of the class, with detention for "talking back". Which is codewords for "the teacher is a dumb bitch who doesn't know jack shit and therefore shouldn't be teaching this". And the diagram was totally wrong.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, I get those codewords, I do. *giggles*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

That's freaking fabulous. I have to remember that strategy. (the "official disapproval" one, not the condom-on-banana one.)

[phreid.livejournal.com]

My high school was until very recently all-female, and was still working on attracting male students when I attended. Including myself, my graduating class was 25% male. Girls were required to wear skirts (no more than two inches above the knee, though you know that was violated all the time) or extremely fugly shorts, and guys had pants or shorts that ripped in the crotch before autumn break. Both sexes had to wear shirts (different styles) that were nearly transparent white--girls were required to wear white bras, which didn't work so well since most of them were dark-skinned.

The number of fights dropped when boys started attending the school, and I saw a lot more sexual harrassment perpetrated by the girls than by the boys (I doubt the administration thought about "ease of flashing" when requiring skirts). I got a lot of crap from both sexes because I refused to do the "macho" things the other boys were doing in an attempt to maintain their masculinity in the female-dominated setting. There was no attempt at gender education such as you describe--it was a Catholic school, and while much more lenient than most people imagine a Catholic school being, it still had many of the stigmas attached--just one optional "health" class that included some basic sex ed.

Even now, when the gender ratio is approaching 50-50, it's still very much a girls' school. Instead of "Miss, can I go to the bathroom?" you get "Miss, can I go change my pad? ...Hey, does anyone have a pad I can use? No, not that kind. Yeah, that--throw it here? Thanks, bye!" I've been privy to conversations in the middle of homeroom where the girls go around and loudly share about their first period or their sexual conquests.

Many girls and boys at my school were not interested in persuing a "half-way decent education;" they were there because their parents sent them there and they would have rather been in the (very much male-dominated) public schools. Because of this, the teachers and administration had to work very hard to allow those of us--female AND male--who wanted a half-way decent education the opportunity to get one while giving the less ambitious among us enough learning to get by in the world.

I guess my point is that I'm having a hard time believing that male-dominated co-education is a statistically unavoidable result of the co-educational system; girls will dominate the system just as easily--and in much the same manner--as boys if given the opportunity. The issue isn't about gender roles so much as the proper atmosphere (and I honestly don't think classes about "gender awareness" are going to do the trick, though they may be a symptom of the attitude necessary).

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I guess my point is that I'm having a hard time believing that male-dominated co-education is a statistically unavoidable result of the co-educational system

I think the example you're giving is an exceptional exception, because it's the co-education of a girl's school, rather than a long-established co-ed school that has been co-ed from the very beginning. It's an interesting an example, however, the fact you brought up this...

The number of fights dropped when boys started attending the school, and I saw a lot more sexual harrassment perpetrated by the girls than by the boys (I doubt the administration thought about "ease of flashing" when requiring skirts). I got a lot of crap from both sexes because I refused to do the "macho" things the other boys were doing in an attempt to maintain their masculinity in the female-dominated setting.

Is an exact example of what I was talking about what I mentioned the distraction of the whole performance of heterosexual genders in co-ed schools in my previous comment. Suddenly you mix the genders of children trying to construct their identity around narrow social (heterosexual) gender guidelines and viola - exactly the situation you described. Though it still exists in same-sex schools, and I wholly acknowledge this, it's not as much of an issue or a site of conflict as when the genders are mixed and therefore the heterosexual dichotomy kicks in.

The issue isn't about gender roles so much as the proper atmosphere (and I honestly don't think classes about "gender awareness" are going to do the trick, though they may be a symptom of the attitude necessary).

Can you please explain what you mean by "a symptom of the attitude necessary"? You suffered "sexual harrassment" from girls and "macho" bullshit from the boys because of the exact phenomenons gender awareness classes being implemented in certain schools in Australia are trying to combat. They may not fix the problem entirely, but do you have a better suggestion for getting rid of these stupid ideals of compulsory heterosexual gender role performance that caused you the griefs you mentioned?