And after posting this, I'd read your reaction over your shoulder, breathing against your neck...

[amanuensis1]

Ooh, I just read Sticky Situations (Snape/Lupin, NC-17) by musigneus, and found it delicious. And had an epiphany: you know what's wild? A character in an erotic story spinning a fantasy aloud is incredibly sexy reading. Not just dirty talk, but an entire dirty spoken-aloud scenario. Now why is that? You would think, if an author's going to write someone talking about a fantasy, why not just write that as the story itself? Yet it's not that simple; having the character speak the fantasy, his/her reactions and the reactions of the person(s) hearing it...it works. Big time. How would you define that--recursive fiction effect, maybe?

Comments

[ellid.livejournal.com]

Maybe it all comes down to the most erotic organ in the body being the brain? It's amazing what a detailed fantasy, whispered in a seductive voice, will do to mortal flesh....

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I think the character voice has to be a big percentage of it.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

This suggests another way in which it breaks the fourth wall; you're in there with the characters in a different way; what they do is like what you do. One touches the other, you can only feel it in your imagination. But one tells the other a story, you hear the same story.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

It's very intimate, speaking about desire. I have to read the story you're talking about, but sounds hot to me. And of course, as you suggest, draws the reader's own activity in- that is, you're reading someone's fantasy, they're sharing it with you, the erotic episode described in the story foregrounds exactly this type of exchange as an/the erotic event, puts hearing/telling an erotic story at the level of "real" sex... ?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I dunno, it's odd. It may be akin to my lack of interest in biographies, or erotica that's too vanilla--I don't want to read those, for the most part, because it seems boring to waste fiction on something that might as well be real life. (Of course there are exceptions, disclaimer disclaimer blah blah blah.) So why is it hot to read about someone talking about a sexual scene, instead of the scene being played out?

[venivincere]

So why is it hot to read about someone talking about a sexual scene, instead of the scene being played out?

I think it's because as readers, we have so much invested in the person speaking to us. We either love him or loathe him or something in between, but if he's well-written, we care about him in every detail -- what he eats, who he hangs out with... what turns him on. That's enough to titillate any voyeur. Add the sex in there? Double trouble. ^_^

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

That helps, no question. I remember a short erotic story where a woman takes her girlfriend to a semi-public place, blindfolds her, gently molests her, and tells her about the bystanders walking by who got a glimpse and are shocked. There's no one there, of course, and they both know it, but the descriptions of the imaginary voyeurs are what put both of the lovers over the edge. I understand why that's incredibly hot for them, but what fascinates me is why it was so very hot for ME, the reader. I knew there wasn't anybody there. Didn't matter. It was incredibly sexy. And these were characters I'd just been introduced to a couple of pages back.

Odd

[bell-witch.livejournal.com]

I'm agreeing with you, and I'm not sure I understand it either. The comment about creating the unfulfilled need is a good way to put it.

Why does this story actually do something for me when a PWP in which the scene was played out probably wouldn't? I don't know, entirely. Part of it is timing, and part of it is how I read/write stories.

When I read and write, I 'hear' the characters in my head. Having fanfic characters whose voices I know fairly well makes it easy. And, I've just discovered Alan Rickman. I really like Snape, but I'm finding that watching the actor in other roles is entertaining. The timing of my reading the story is, therefore, perfect. I never could 'see' it myself when other ladies said how much Sean Connery's voice (for example) was sexy. I am now understanding this via Alan Rickman. This will make the next Harry Potter movie interesting to watch in an entirely new way.

It's an unusual way to write a story, so it's interesting. It's well-written and in character (as much as Snape doing anything 'romantic/sexual' is in character, but that's how I see it), and the brain can do amazing things.

This has just given me personal insight (the brain comment) and I hope I can figure a way to phrase this so I can explain something to my counselor. My brain is all I have, so doing things contrary to it is going to be difficult. [Sorry, personal musing there. But the story and the discussion behind it prompted something important, so I thank you.]

And I hadn't seen the story yet, it came to my attention via this discussion, which is odd.

Re: Odd

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Why does this story actually do something for me when a PWP in which the scene was played out probably wouldn't?

Actually, this comment of yours pointed out something to me--in this story, if the two characters were involved in the actual scene being described, there would be an element of consensuality and everyday-ness to it which is superceded by Snape simply describing what he would do. Lupin doesn't consent to the idea; he only listens to it, and that definitely piques my interest!

Re: Odd

[gaeta.livejournal.com]

You've reminded me of another story, also by Musigneus, in which Remus has been captured and is tortured by Snape (He doesn't mean it). The most harrowing part, however, is Lucius, invited to watch, describing how he will torture Remus the following day. It never happens, but it's amazing writing.

My apologies to Musigneus for being too lazy to go look up the title.

Re: Odd

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I swear, I must have read this! And it sounds so good, I want to go back and look at it again.

[sor-bet.livejournal.com]

So why is it hot to read about someone talking about a sexual scene, instead of the scene being played out?

Maybe it's the same reason why it's funnier if a scene stops short and you DON'T see the joke. Because your brain fills it in for you, makes it better than having it handed to you.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

"Having it handed to you." Oooh, I'm always on about that--"Don't tie it up with a bow, let me get it for myself!" Good point.

[saturn92103.livejournal.com]

I think that's part of the allure of dirty talk in general. Being able to skillfully verbalize a fantasy to someone is incredibly erotic.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

On the phone, in the privacy of one's bedroom--or quietly, in a public location, definitely. But why is that so in a story? When you have the freedom, in a story, to write that actual scene happening? Rather that write about two characters talking about it?

[saturn92103.livejournal.com]

I think part of it is the connection the reader will have to the scene. It creates an unfulfilled need and hunger that you don't get when the characters are actually engaged in the sexual activity and the imagery of it is incredibly erotic. And, as a reader, you're already forced to visualize the activity but, in this case, you can visualize it right along with the character who's being spoken to.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

It creates an unfulfilled need and hunger that you don't get when the characters are actually engaged in the sexual activity

Ah. That's a very good illustration, yes!

[musigneus.livejournal.com]

I'm delighted (again!) that you liked the story; thank you for the rec, and the discussion of why/how fantasy talk can be effective. There were some interesting points above, and I particularly liked saturn92103's comment about fantasy talk creating an unfulfilled need and hunger. I think fantasy talk can also let the author have the characters "do" things they wouldn't have actually done, which can add a tiny bit of extra tension to the scene.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

And when they speak the fantasy, it assumes everything went just the way they wanted it to, which might have been harder to pull off if the fantasy were just being written as if it happened. There's a point!

[leni-jess.livejournal.com]

Apologies for bad coding in deleted entry

I agree with musigneus that fantasy talk can also let the author have the characters "do" things they wouldn't have actually done, which can add a tiny bit of extra tension to the scene. Particularly if the fantasy goes overboard in a way the participants wouldn't want in life, or which would be trammeled with practicalities that would take the shine off the idea.

And I'm definitely with ellid on the importance of the brain in arousal.

The other thing is - what the author gives you, writing such a fantasy being described/discussed, is possibility. That's enticing. It can be more exciting than what's actually written, because everything is so much more open, fluid; the reader as well as the characters can run with it. (Now I know why you liked the fantasy Snape spins in A Devil for Punishment, and this discussion has helped me understand why it's reasonable that that should be so. I know it's one of the reasons I enjoyed writing it! I need to remember this for when I'm next writing a longish PWP - I draft such fantasy scenes in my head, but they don't get to the paper, yet they're really effective.)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember that scene! Deee-lish. What you've said here about it being more open and fluid, and the ability for the fantasy to go "overboard," makes immense amounts of sense.

[lyttlelucyfer.livejournal.com]

I think part of what makes it so interesting (and no, interesting certainly isn't the best descriptor I can come up with for this story, but Im sleep deprived so Im afraid it will have to do for now) is the idea of eroticism being based in what we feel we should not want or are not allowed.

In most cultures, talking candidly and confidently about sex, particularly kinky fantasy, is considered rather taboo, certainly something to be harshly restricted to one's own private space, if even that. But here we have people not only talking about it, but doing so with such intensity and articulation that it is, in itself, arousing, because of the potential sexuality it suggests.

I certainly agree that the brain is the most important of sexual organs, and perhaps it is simply a case of the brain relying on words. Verbal information can be translated and percieved to greater ends than touch, indeed, what is recalled most about sexual foreplay, touch or words?

For some reason, this has me thinking of Hell, by Seeker (http://www.bantrim.net/Hell.htm , I think), in which Sirius and Severus have sex on the floor of an office. But for me, by far the best part of the story was Sirius' explaination, just one brief sentence to Snape, right at the end. It's the vital part of the story, that which you remember, that which leads to a new level for the characters. Plus, even that little line in itself, is hot.

Or maybe Im just weird:D

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I remember that story! So tasty. And the analogy is perfect--that one line that took it all to a new level.

[lyttlelucyfer.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that icon is just...so brilliant.
Grinning like a loon here.
Heh.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Y'mean the pony one? 'S one of my favorite Ponderosa drawings, hee.