Because everyone's talking about feedback. Well, they were, anyway. I'm kinda slow on these things.

[amanuensis1]

On feedback:

Of course I love positive feedback. I can't imagine who doesn't. Positive feedback makes my freaking month. I love everything from "that wuz cute lol" to ten-page analyses. In the past I've expressed bewilderment over feedback that is nothing but "you cannot leave it there; SEQUEL!!!" But you know what? I understand that for some it's their version of high praise, and that's very sweet.

But I don't feedback everything I read, and I don't expect everyone else to either. First, I don't send con-crit unless I've been invited to be a beta. "PLZ R &R!!1!!!" is not a request for a beta. Many think it is, when they see it on stories, and writers sometimes think too when they put it on their stories, but often those writers are unhappy when actual con-crit shows up. Not going there. Uh-uh. Unless I can be uniformly positive in my feedback, I don't want to leave feedback; I'd rather let silence speak for me. I won't damn with faint praise. And so I anticipate a sort of "do unto others" philosophy from readers, and assume that those who aren't commenting may not be entirely giddy over what they've read. Maybe my "this one isn't all that good" fears are right. Maybe the story's the best thing since sliced bread, but it's a subject a lot of people don't like.

(An aside: Do I appreciate negative feedback? God, yes--if it's useful. I won't be making changes to a finished story based on unsolicited con-crit, but if I think the con-crit makes valid points, I'll keep that in mind for future writing. I always want to improve my writing. And con-crit keeps one from turning into a "Gee, I guess I must be the greatest thing since sliced bread" monster. Very important. ^_^ "This kind of story isn't my cup of tea" criticism is understandably not useful, however, and this is why I advocate silence on those sorts of stories unless directly asked.)

And maybe they didn't see the story. Maybe they don't leave feedback for anyone. Maybe they're too busy right now, or ever. Maybe they're in a mood where everything they read just seems to suck. Me too, sometimes.

Most importantly, I know what I'm writing. I'm writing fanfic. I'm writing erotic fanfic. I'm writing explicit (often non-consensual) erotic fanfic based on a family-audience book. I was all blushy about posting this stuff to begin with, and I've got a pseudonym and separate email addy 'n' stuff. The people reading it might not have that kind of luxury. The people reading it might be embarrassed as hell to be reading it, let alone writing email to tell me they're reading it. Bless your embarrassed little hearts, don't worry about it for a minute. Read and enjoy. I consider it a public service to be a pornographer, bringing smut to the delightfully smut-minded. And I'll keep doing it as long as it's fun.

Love you all.

Comments

[laylah.livejournal.com]

I consider it a public service to be a pornographer, bringing smut to the delightfully smut-minded.

Yes, absolutely!
It's good to be a sex missionary :)

Even better when people tell you that they appreciate what you've done, but good even without what.

[electricandroid.livejournal.com]

I so agree with everything you have said.

That is worrying

may I change my name to "Public Service Pornographer"

PLEASE....

its making me giggle

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I consider it a public service to be a pornographer, bringing smut to the delightfully smut-minded.
Hee, that line is priceless! And what a sweet message. <3

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

"This kind of story isn't my cup of tea" criticism is understandably not useful, however, and this is why I advocate silence on those sorts of stories unless directly asked.

Heh. I was thinking about posting a long screed on this, on why I am largely a silent reader because I can't say "I loved it" when I didn't, yet I can't blame the writer for not writing the story I wanted to read, but I'm sick and cranky and knew it would come out all bitchy and nasty and it's too much trouble to sit here and type that much anyway. But, yeah, bingo.

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

HEY DON'T LOOK AT ME I'VE ALREADY LEFT YOU MORE THAN ENOUGH FEEDBACK YOU SPOILED CHILD.

*spanks*

THERE SHALL BE NO FUCKABLE TILL I GET MY PUNISHMENT FIC.

*runs away, cackling*

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

I consider it a public service to be a pornographer, bringing smut to the delightfully smut-minded. And I'll keep doing it as long as it's fun.

And there we are! And we love you for your sense of public service!

*hugs*

[sliverluc.livejournal.com]

I leave feedback on lj lot. I feel brushed off when people can't even just say TY. When I get feedback I thank them too for taking their time to say something to what I have done. I think it has to be a fair exchange.

[rane-ab.livejournal.com]

We love you, too. :D I think that's the sweetest take on feedback I've read yet, proving again you really are a little darling. :-)

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

I consider it a public service to be a pornographer, bringing smut to the delightfully smut-minded

And the delightfully smut-minded appreciate it. :-)

I pretty much share your philosophy on feedback (though I'm more of a purveyor of gen to the delightfully gen-minded, myself). The problem with the "if you liked it enough to read it, you must feedback it" philosophy is that if I really felt that way, I'd read a lot fewer stories. I suspect quite a few people feel the same way. And as a writer, I'd rather have people read my stories and not comment than have them not read at all.

[absynthia.livejournal.com]

Bless your embarrassed little hearts, don't worry about it for a minute.

Hehehehe... What a great attitude you have. I usually do the same -- refrain from leaving feedback unless it's something I really loved on many levels... although if it's a new writer I will sometimes break that rule and just point out the parts I *did* like.

You missed another possibility -- that sometimes some of us try and refrain from feedbacking you on every single drabble you write, because we don't want to be exposed for the hopeless fangirls that we are. Well... not so often, anyway. ;)

[fabularasa.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, absolutely, to everything you said. Feedback is like thank you notes, but better; if you really didn't like the gift, you don't have to write one. Taking refuge in judicious silence is always the best course of action. I admit I am puzzled by unsolicited con-crit, a.k.a."Ohmigod I LOVED your story you are a goddess but what the hell was up with the paragraph where...", and nine paragrpahs later I'm thinking, this is why people enlist betas, respected readers whose opinions we actually value. It does seem to me that offering unsolicited con-crit is the rankest arrogance, since it assumes that you (oh writer) naturally value the opinion of me (the wise reader.) Just because I want you as my reader doesn't mean I actually value your opinion about writing; heck, nine times out of ten I don't even know you, so why should I? And I can't imagine posting a "read and review" at the top of any story. Drop a card if you liked it; hit "next" and move on if you didn't.

I don't think I've ever read anything, fanfic or straight fic or anything in between, that I thought was completely flawless. It's just not possible in nature. So I think it goes without saying that every story has its flaws, but commenting on them is pointless, rude, and presumptuous, unless one is in the position of beta reader to that writer. I think unpublished stories (and their writers) ought to be accorded the same respect as published ones. I don't ring up Rowling to lecture her on her love affair with the adverb, and I don't expect fanfic readers to lecture me on inconsistencies or flaws in my stories.

Sometimes, I suppose, fanfic can be like the extraordinarily ugly baby. "That's SOME story you wrote there," never hurt anyone.

[notuilion.livejournal.com]

I consider it a public service to be a pornographer, bringing smut to the delightfully smut-minded.

Abso-fucking-lutely a public service!

And I must say, I envy your eminently quotable precision with the English language, no matter what use it's put to. You remind me -- with the connotations, the clever wording, and the brilliance within time limits -- of my prospective business partner, who's the most brilliant writer I know personally. And who's always deeply uncomfortable when reminded how much I worship his talent. Because it is...there's Art there. Logic and craftsmanship are my world, getting it right through evolution my modus operandi, and you guys just do it somehow. Perfect, rather than perfected.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

It does seem to me that offering unsolicited con-crit is the rankest arrogance, since it assumes that you (oh writer) naturally value the opinion of me (the wise reader.)

Yeah, but that's how I got you to take me on as beta! HAHAHA!

[fabularasa.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. Whoops.

It does seem to me that offering unsolicited con-crit is the rankest arrogance best way to meet completely fascinating people.

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

I'm So glad to hear you say that about the public service, because I've been recc'ing "Blood for a Parched Tongue" to, I swear, nearly everyone I *know* who's expressed ANY interest in smut, even people who've never considered the fandom before.

I swear, it was to make a point about the Vocabulary Challenge, at least some of the time...

I wonder if any of those readers left you feedback? They told ME they were impressed.

[dont-callmebabe.livejournal.com]

We love you too...
Please, go on!
(I personally don't review just because that's easier for me to understand English than to write it, i should be ashamed!b)

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

I've never thought of it like that before but yes, I write pornography.

Wow.

That's sort of blown my mind :-)

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

The problem with the "if you liked it enough to read it, you must feedback it" philosophy is that if I really felt that way, I'd read a lot fewer stories.

That's exactly right. [nod] I mean, unless you're working off of a rec from someone whose opinion you absolutely always agree with one hundred percent of the time, you don't know you're going to like the story until you've read it. Or maybe you liked the early part but the end fell flat. Or whatever. It's like Socrates' comment on how you can't say if a man had a good life until after he's dead. You don't know if a story will really be a good story until after you're done, and at that point it's too late to say, Oh, didn't like this one, I won't read it. :/

And then there are auto-accident stories. You know, the ones that are just so terribly written that they leave you incredulously horrified at the mangled mess piling up in front of your eyes, such that you have a hard time looking away because it's just so gruesome. [rueful smile] But very few writers would want to hear about that in comments....

But anyway, the basic idea of a story being "good enough to read" is based on a fallacy. As a reader I get both frustrated and annoyed when I see those kinds of shame-them-into-commenting notes.

Angie

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

It does seem to me that offering unsolicited con-crit is the rankest arrogance, since it assumes that you (oh writer) naturally value the opinion of me (the wise reader.) Just because I want you as my reader doesn't mean I actually value your opinion about writing; heck, nine times out of ten I don't even know you, so why should I?

It's funny, but as a writer I feel exactly the opposite. I want to know what everyone thinks. I don't care if I know them or not, if I've ever seen their name before, or whatever. That's all completely irrelevant. A comment is either useful or not, based on concrete examples and principles or not, and who the person is who's making the comment has nothing to do with its validity. I don't care if it's Anonymous, so long as it's useful.

Getting constructive criticism, to me, is better than getting chocolate. I won't agree with it all, of course. I'm not going to assume someone's opinion is worth more than mine, just because it's someone else's. But I love listening to opinions about my stories, other insights and viewpoints, and better yet if there's some sort of reasoning and examples behind it. I've been convinced more than once that I'd gone in the wrong direction, or that something was unclear, and there've been times when I could only figure, Oh well, not my audience, and thank the person as I set aside their comments. But I love getting it. It's all data, and it's all valuable in some way or another.

If I come across a story where the writer has said something like "This is unbetaed, please let me know of any mistakes," and if it's a story that grabs me for whatever reason, I'll do exactly as the writer asked. A full-up critique from me mentions mechanical errors, plot holes, characterization inconsistencies, clanking dialogue, POV problems -- whatever I trip over. It also includes things I liked, things which worked particularly well, great lines, places that made me laugh or cry or tense up, twists I wasn't expecting, and anything else that seemed to be working nicely. And I'll throw in some things just for data -- at this point I'm assuming X is going to happen, when this happened I got a feeling that character Y is the bad guy, this scene came across to me as (funny/poignant/sad/sarcastic/whatever), is that what you intended? I like hearing about what a reader was thinking and feeling and assuming as they read along, and I try to give that to writers I'm critiquing for.

Of course, I don't do full critiques very often, for obvious reasons. It can take hours, and before I put in that kind of work I want to have at least some assurance that the writer will appreciate it. But to me, the greatest compliment one can pay a writer is to assume that she's serious about her craft, that she wants to know what she's doing that's working and what she's doing that isn't, and that she wants to improve. Baby writers (no matter how long or short a time they've been writing) with tissue-paper skin, who'd never survive the real world of publishing, are the ones who need to be coddled and gentled along. A straightforward, constructive critique, not nasty or sarcastic but honestly meant to be helpful, says to the recipient, I respect you and take you seriously as a writer. I write the kinds of comments that I'd kill to get, and I do my best to match them to writers who'll also appreciate getting them.

Maybe we should all include a note with our stories saying whether we want comments, what sort, and from whom. That way, anyone who asks for something they end up not liking has nothing to complain about, and those of us who really like giving and receiving a lot of input and feedback can more easily find each other and enjoy our discussions. You could put "Concrit from friends only please," and I could put "Concrit desperately wanted -- pile it on!!" :D

Angie

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Do I appreciate negative feedback? God, yes--if it's useful. I won't be making changes to a finished story based on unsolicited con-crit, but if I think the con-crit makes valid points, I'll keep that in mind for future writing. I always want to improve my writing.

Absolutely. I remember in a writers' board where I used to hang out, one person actually said that she thought it was rude to make negative comments, no matter how constructively or politely, about a story that's already been published, because the writer can't go back and make any changes once the work's in print. :P Yeah, she was serious. She never did catch on to the concept of improvement in general skills, to be applied to future works.

Angie

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

Heck, not only do your stories inspire, but so do your comments! *grins*

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Of course I'm not a writer, but this does seem a little strong to me. I'm really interested in knowing the different feelings writers have, but they *are* so different that it seems unfair to label any approach to FB either "rank arrogance" or "selfish neglect." I mean everyone agrees that they like to hear when you love their story, but beyond that... I've had people I considered friends act miffed when I pointed out a typo (which I thought was just a favor), while people I hardly knew were delighted to get a page-long critique.

And then of course there's you, where I've read hundreds of pages of your fic, made copious marginal notes, and never sent more than a generalized expression of fannishness in a comment to a random LJ post. And yes, I haven't forgotten, I will hook up the laptop to the cable and send...

And A--thank you for your kind words about silent readers. I was completely silent for months when I started reading, and am still a spotty FB-er at best. But I'm also confused. Are you saying you yourself would never leave "constructive criticism" (which I guess means things like, I loved the story but this particular bit didn't make sense to me), but like to get it?

[fabularasa.livejournal.com]

Are you saying you yourself would never leave "constructive criticism" (which I guess means things like, I loved the story but this particular bit didn't make sense to me), but like to get it?

No, I would never offer unsolicited "constructive criticism" of a writer's work. I don't think posting a story is an invitation to receive comments on one's writing, unless specifically asked for, and aside from "plz R&R!!!1!!" on ff.net, I've never noticed a fanfic writer to request comments in an author's note. Presumably the writer has beta readers she has reason to trust more than she does me.

And in fact, no, I don't care to receive unsolicited con-crit myself, so I am simply extending the same courtesy to others. I am not going to go back and make editorial changes to a story I've already written; we're talking fanfic here, and it's purely for the passing enjoyment of myself and others, and in general I can't be arsed to undertake editing of something I've written and moved on from. Aside, of course, from the beta reading process. When my trusted readers tell me something before posting, I listen; but if I've posted something, I've made all the changes I think are necessary, or that I am willing to make. The act of posting is the declaration that a work is finished, and I intend no more changes. There comes a point when readers must respect authorial choices, regardless of whether they agree with them or not.

I would make an exception for typos, I guess; no one wants a story out there that has any of those in them, and I think it could be a kindness to point those out to writers, although I have never actually done it. Who's to know, for instance, if a misspelling is a typo or the result of the author's ignorance, which it would be rude to point out? So I just don't do it, I guess -- do unto others, and all that.

The only way I can think of to offer unsolicited con-crit that doesn't seem to me ipso facto rude would be to make an offer to one day beta a story for a writer. "This was an interesting story, and if you're ever in need of any beta readers please let me know," seems the ideal way to say, "What an appalling story, and yet you have potential buried beneath your general awfulness." I once received just such an e-mail (the former, not the latter) and it resulted in a long and fruitful mutual beta-reading relationship. Which reminds me that I need to go check on Isis and her cold.

[lolaraincoat.livejournal.com]

Hi, dropping by on Idlerat's advice here ...

I once got some feedback that began, "I'm pants at reviewing, but --" and I thought, ah-ha! that's me! pants at reviewing! So, thank you so much for speaking up for the shy reader and the person who can't figure out how to say much more than "wow, cool!"

On the other hand, con-crit feedback can be a great thing. Maybe it depends on where and when the con-crit shows up? For instance the feedback on the one long story I posted in my lj included people noting spelling errors and canon issues and typos, and that was actually useful and nice of them to do (the person who caught the biggest howler went on to become a great lj friend, too.) But if I got that kind of feedback unsolicited once I'd posted something to an archive, I think I'd hate it.

Finally. I've read all of your fic that I could find, and I would like to say for the record that you are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

*avoids any "missionary" puns* "Even without what" is going to be my new catchphrase. I like that.