Romance and HP

[amanuensis1]

Someone brought this up in a thread somewhere, and I'm starting to subscribe to it too. Has to do with JKR and romance.


Yes, says Rowling, it was always going to be Ron/Hermione; she thought it was plain. Yes, she says, she always planned for Harry and Ginny to "come together and then part." The hints were there.

The hints, however, are the same sort of hints as introducing Polyjuice potion in CoS, and having it play a vital role in GoF. Of having the Trio muse that they haven't seen Kreacher around much over Christmas holidays. Of Scabbers missing a toe. They're plotty hints but not emotional development.

Harry/Ginny is plot but not romance. They're are hints that they'd fit together, like other plot elements in JKR's books, and through book 6 you see, as you do with Ron & Hermione, not the why of the falling in love, not the attraction, but the how of the "how will they get together?" As romance it falls flat, if one's looking for a romantic read. Which I may have been, but so were a lot of others.

If the Harry Potter series were a romance, Harry/Hermione would make the most sense--Hermione is the main female character; she's the only one who's had enough to development for a romance-type reader to think she's worthy of the main male character's interest. This, I think, is where the Harry/Hermione 'shippers (me included) are stumbling about in bewilderment trying to understand why everyone else (JKR included) are telling them the clues all went the other way. If you expect romance as emotional fulfillment and not mere plot, then you're not looking for clues; you're looking for the moments of emotional connection between characters. Harry's had plenty of those with Hermione, I don't think anyone will argue--she's his best female friend. He's not had any of those with Ginny. I really don't think he had any of those with Ginny even in HBP. He had a sudden teenage explosion of noticing her, and yes, I do understand that that's how teen romance happens, but it makes sense from a "this is how things happen" plot sense, to me, and not because of any character development.

This is why we're also asked to buy the Remus/Tonks. As plot, it works fine, and I actually can buy Remus/Tonks far more easily because this is not a relationship we would have expected to see crafted with any more detail than it was, simply because our protagonist was not in a position to see it. But is it asking too much that we get a greater emotional development of the romances that occurred right before Harry's eyes--including his own?

Harry/Ginny feels as distant to me as James/Lily. I was told about it, but never asked to feel it. In fact, I think Harry/Ginny might be Harry's answer to why James/Lily. He puzzles it out, asking Sirius and Remus how his parents could ever have got together; clearly Lily hated James at one time. And he's told that when James stopped being a prat, it blossomed. Similarly, when Ginny stops being a tongue-tied shy thing, Harry starts taking notice, and one day, brrdoom. Just like that, Harry. Doesn't have to be more complicated.

Only I kind of wish it was.

A concession, however: JKR emphasized "come together and part." Does she mean them to be parted for good? If so, perhaps she thought making this anything deeper than Harry's first girlfriend (Cho's not his first girlfriend, she's his first crush) would be wrong, to ask the reader to make that much emotional investment.

I liked millefiori's reaction to this issue: "I need to step back and remind myself that I'm a character-driven reader in love with the story of a plot-driven writer. My characterization fix is going to have to come from fandom." Best reason for fanfic I've heard in a long time. (Even more than the smut. ^_^)

Comments

[madlori.livejournal.com]

I am so linking to this. Oh, and you = my homegirl.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

*hugs you* I'm sure there will be many takes on this, and I'm looking forward to seeing them all. It's the sort of "aha!" moment for me that works and calms me!

[fabularasa.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow. Yes yes yes. This is what I mean to say by sniffing that "I may be a better reader than Rowling is a writer." I read for character, she writes for plot, and hence the difficulty. As usual, you put the face of articulacy (and normalcy) on all our deep unease with what happens emotionally in this book.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I had the stirrings of what I meant when I noted, at some point in hbp_chapters, that the Harry/Ginny was feeling like the James/Lily must have been. It took someone else saying, "JKR's more plot-oriented than romance-oriented," for me to hit the "That's it!" and vomit forth the roiling bolus of commentary. Ah, the "discussion points as emetics" metaphor. Gotta love it.

[fraught.livejournal.com]

That's the most sense-making thing I've heard so far about this whole shipmess.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

It works, doesn't it? I'm happy the collective fandom is picking up this ball and running with it.

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

I can absolutely agree with you -- she failed to 'sell' the Harry/Ginny relationship as anything deeper than hormonal. I mean hell, she sold Harry/Cho better than that, and anyone at all could see that was a disaster impending from the moment it bloomed onscreen.

I still think she's overlooking a stellar possibility of having Harry pick up Hermione's broken pieces after her beloved Ron dies in the next book. That's what I would have done with it.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I saw the Harry/Cho, I saw it and I was okay with it--more than okay, I thought it was sweet and I was cheering it. And when it ended I believed that too.

I wonder if Harry/Ginny will translate better onscreen?

And post-Ron's-death!Harry/Hermione is perfect fanfiction fodder. Would be for canon, too, iffen she'd wanted.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Yes, JKR's stories are all about plot... And I don't think H/G is over for good, I think, like mistful observed, that H/G is an archetype, the hero realising the devoted girl's true beauty and having her wait for him until he can return at the end of his battle to collect her. Unless Harry dies in the end, but I can't believe JKR would be brave enough to do this.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I very much liked what mistful had to say (who didn't? ^_^), and I'll tell you: I never believed JKR woul kill Harry, but I'm no longer sure. It's giving me CHILLS.

[lissannej.livejournal.com]

I found this post on my friendsfriends, hope you don't mind me dropping by. I've just done a post about the same subject -- why Harry/Ginny didn't work for me -- and wanted to say I'm with you on this one (although your post is much more succinct than mine!). That's the general reaction I've seen from almost everyone about the H/G romance -- it was all tell and no show. Cheers, Lissanne.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

A pleasure to have you drop by! And I'm reading your take on this and I like how in-depth your analysis is. I can definitely see how Harry needs Hermione too much to risk losing her after a romance. And yes, I thought Ginny was pretty obnoxious and nothing like warm and compassionate either.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

""I need to step back and remind myself that I'm a character-driven reader in love with the story of a plot-driven writer. My characterization fix is going to have to come from fandom.""

Holy frickin' WORD. That's exactly how I felt last night when I was feeling so furious with the Ginny-hatred, because I want to like Ginny (and not H/G, mind), but my love of Ginny really needs to come more from fic than from the books. Reluctantly so, but if it must be, it must be.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I want to like Ginny if Harry likes her. But I'm just...I dunno, I've reached a state of boredom with her. And the possibility that it's over (though who knows) doesn't make me want to try very hard!

[herlifeisbroken.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. That's it. Nicely put.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I'm seeing other people put further aspects of this into equally useful words! Seems to be the new "thing." ^_^ *hugs you*

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

It's exactly that emotional connection that made me hope that there wouldn't be Harry/Hermione. Hermione as friend is wonderful - she's a support system both intellectually and emotionally (it used to be morally, but that's changed a bit). It creates her as a whole character in our eyes, someone independent of Harry even as she follows him.

We're conditioned to see "close friend of the opposite sex" become girlfriend/boyfriend, but, as Harry noted, that changes the relationship, and not always positively. It also reinforces the idea that boys and girls can't be friends. So, Hermione/Ron isn't great, either, but since the main thing in these books is how they relate to Harry, it could be worse.

I'm a slasher, so I'm not invested in any ship, and I admit to not liking Harry paired with anyone.

[effie-chan.livejournal.com]

That's how I feel, too. I would think it best if by the end of book seven Harry didn't have any girlfriend at all. That way you can imagine him with anyone who suits you. ;)

[aiji-yuywell.livejournal.com]

You know I was thinking the same thing when it comes to character VS plot. once you become more familiar to a certain fandom you care less about plot and more ont he characters. you like them... but why do you like them. It's a battle some authors can't win and thus fanfiction erupts like crazy. Maybe JK can accept some OOC if it furthers the plot, but I know I can't.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

once you become more familiar to a certain fandom you care less about plot and more ont he characters.

Oh, that's very nicely put. I need to keep that idea in the forefront, too.

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

That actually makes sense of a lot of the stuff that's gone on over the past 10 days or so, especially for those of us who were a bit confused by the frantic and apparently random pairing up. And a lot of the problems people have brought up even before that with JKR... yes, I think that's a really good point.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I liked leni_jess referring to the pairings as Noah's Ark-esque, which prompted me to refer to The Romance Part Of The Plot as The Noah's Arc. Heh.

[dejaspirit.livejournal.com]

This is excellent analysys, dear. I had never considered it before. Am impressed. This could also be why I wasn't that emotionally invested in H/Hr in canon, although I prefer it in fanfic.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

It's interesting how some of us are all right with separating canon and fanon and others won't be satisfied with fanfiction; they just want to see what they want canonically. I've been that way for a number of fandoms, when I was into the show/book/movie but not into the fanfiction at all.

[jacyevans.livejournal.com]

Here via a link from madlorivoldmort and this makes perfect sense. A thousand times YES. *adds to memories*

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Must jump in to love your icon, which makes perfect sense to me. I mean, who marries their high-school boyfriend/girlfriend?

[myrafur.livejournal.com]

If the Harry Potter series were a romance, Harry/Hermione would make the most sense

THANK YOU!! I'm not a 'shipper,' per se, but OH MY GOD the Harry/Ginny is so dull I couldn't cut butter with it!

This is exactly, exactly the way I feel about this issue! ...only you're more eloquent. By, like, 1,000x...

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD the Harry/Ginny is so dull I couldn't cut butter with it!

Eee, that so needs iconing. "Harry/Ginnnnyawwwnnn."

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

I completely agree.

"I need to step back and remind myself that I'm a character-driven reader in love with the story of a plot-driven writer. My characterization fix is going to have to come from fandom."
*flail* Word.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, I couldn't say it better than millefiori!

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

Harry/Ginny feels as distant to me as James/Lily. I was told about it, but never asked to feel it. In fact, I think Harry/Ginny might be Harry's answer to why James/Lily.

Holy shit, he does suffer from Oedipus syndrom then! ;P Seriously though, if that's his method of figuring out things he doesn't know, or solving puzzles, I'm really not surprised about his heavy-handedness when dealing with the whole Malfoy issue. I mean, he was one step short of bashing his head in the Room of Requirement's door space in order to get in! I guess that's where JKR sort of takes the piss on him. ;)

The hints, however, are the same sort of hints as introducing Polyjuice potion in CoS, and having it play a vital role in GoF. Of having the Trio muse that they haven't seen Kreacher around much over Christmas holidays. Of Scabbers missing a toe. They're plotty hints but not emotional development.

And that is JKR's main problem, I think. This reminds me of something Cate Blanchett once said about her works in college. She said her professors didn't understand the pattern of her logic, but she did. To make an awful paraphrase, JKR fails to understand that when she writes romance in her books, she sees it as plot. Her readers aren't satisfied though, because they need more than that.
Someone said in one of the discussions around here that the Harry Potter books are wonderfully filled with gaps that fandom takes great joy in filling. I guess that needing to flesh out the romance too is another gap, surprising as it is.

Cho's not his first girlfriend, she's his first crush

In continuation to what I've said, I have to say that while reading PoA (prior to my joining fandom), I really didn't care about what happened between Harry and Cho. And I was 16, I think, so yeah, you can count on my hormones to letch on any bit of smut they could find. However, I'd never come to connect this series with hormones until I joined fandom. Meh.

Also, I'm with you there on the Harry/Hermione point. It's not a ship I love from reading it an awful lot (because pete knows I don't), but to me it feels right, and certainly more "right" than Harry/Ginny. There is so much interaction to base a relationship upon. On that level, you could place Harry's obssession with Draco Malfoy on the same level as Harry/Ginny, because it's instinctive, not calculated. It's gut feeling Harry follows. So much for scaly monsters. (did you notice how I managed to make H/D sound like H/G? I am a genious >:D)

*smooch*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

You are SUCH a genius. *smooches back* I like the Cate Blanchett analogy; that sparks lots of "Ooh, yes, I think we all do that!" headnodding on my part.

Someone said in one of the discussions around here that the Harry Potter books are wonderfully filled with gaps that fandom takes great joy in filling. I guess that needing to flesh out the romance too is another gap, surprising as it is.

Y'know what? Fanficwriters who didn't like Harry/Ginny (me included) should be challenged to flesh out the Harry/Ginny. I wouldn't WANT to, but that would be the point. ^_^

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Very interesting essay!

I was saying to someone recently that if the R/Hr hints were "anvil-sized", as JKR recently said, then I feel pretty damn comfortable stating definitively that Draco/Pansy HAS SAILED, heh! But, as that person also aptly pointed out, anvils are kind of small, actually . . .

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

They're, like, little soft downy cottony anvils of luuuuurve!

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I like your point about James/Lily, and that Harry might be having a not-so-deep relationship because that's what he imagines his parents' relationship to have been like. Which doesn't mean that's what it *was* actually like, and he might figure that out eventually. I wonder if he were to see some scenes from his parents' mature marriage if he might fall for Hermione instead. Or for Ron.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

'Fess up, you were one of those readers who giggled at the "Ginny or Ron? Harry wondered." Me, too!

[many-miles-away.livejournal.com]

I couldn't have said it better (I *could*, however, have said it a lot worse, if you're interested).

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Go for it! Expand upon it--expound on it, even! ^_^

[likebunnies.livejournal.com]

I found my way over here from Lori's LJ. Nice essay! I do agree and you clarify a lot of reasons I've been having problems with the story and with my own writing. I'm not good at plot but I can do character and when I mix the two, I get stuck. JKR has a great time with plot but very few characters develop at a pace fast enough for my taste. How long have people been waiting to see Draco develop as much as he just did? I never thought he'd get past this flat 'bully' type character. Her characters develop when it serves the plot.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I was so happy, and, yes, startled to see Draco develop! I'd really thought he was all but a lost cause. And lookit what we got!

I also find it sad that some of the niftiest characters show up in her books and then have to go by the wayside. Anyone else sad that Karkaroff got offed so, well, off-handedly?

[ackonrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, yes! Thank you for voicing so effectively everything I've wanted to say. :)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

It took a while for me to be able to work it out but once someone said, "the relationships are plot but not romance" it really started falling into place for me. *hugs*

[gmth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I thought the Harry/Ginny thing was the most clumsily-handled aspect of the book. I love love LOVE that quote about "I need to step back and remind myself that I'm a character-driven reader in love with the story of a plot-driven writer." That is utterly brilliant.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Doesn't it make you feel better, acknowledging Rowling's limitations might go just that way, and accepting that what she does do well she does great, even if she can't do everything? Does me, anyway.

[mereol.livejournal.com]

while i agree with you on the lack of build-up to the relationship, i totally bought it and expected and and wanted it. to me, it's the typical teenage relationship.

girl likes hero
hero doesn't notice
girl ceases to flaunt her deep and unabating love to god and country and moves on (preferably to close mate and/or dorm mate of hero)
hero notices slight and says, 'hey, wtf? she's pretty cute.'
now, hero likes girl too.
a chase must ensue, ending with hero getting the girl. why? he's the fucking hero, that's why.

and i have to ask, how do you pronounce your name? i pronounce it as "i'm a nuisance"....which is not meant as an aspersion on your character in the least.

and i dunno, i'm in love with fanfic for the smut.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I do love your summary. It's not wrong; it does feel the typical and expected thing! But I wanted to feel the emotion of it build, and that disappointed me, a bunch.

The pseudonym (it's a real word) is pronounced "uh-MAN-you-EN-sis," and it means secretary or scribe. But if I'm ever parodied I want "I'm a nuisance" to be my parody name!

And I embrace you for lovin' the smut. It keeps coming back to that for me too.

[smoonyc.livejournal.com]

Fantastic :) Am linking to this from my journal.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, how cool! Thank you very much! *hugs*

[slumber.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with the plot-ness of H/G and not its actual romance-ness, but I feel differently about how R/Hr was developed, in that I felt it. Then again, I felt H/Hr too, in HBP, which is a bit strange, and you know, the trio was just really strong, in all, in HBP.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I was better with the "how" of Ron/Hermione than I was with the Harry/Ginny--but, yes, I'm better with the Trio than I am with any of it. (Heh, your icon's so wonderfully multi-purpose!)