Okay, apparently I was reading a completely different book from the rest of you.
In my book, Snape was going to either kill or be killed by Dumbledore, but it was so obvious that he was NOT working for Voldemort that that was clearly going to be revealed by the end of this book.
In my book, Dumbledore was acting in such an erratic manner that it was clear that something had a hold of him--half the time Voldemort was actually controlling him, was my bet. All that stuff about Harry being the only one who could get the memory from Slughorn? Bulls**t. Dumbledore coulda done it like that. That was Voldemort pushing Harry to do something Voldemort couldn't. This was why Dumbledore had vague excuses. This is why Dumbledore was all "I am very disappointed in you, Harry, there will be no more lessons until you get that memory from Slughorn." This was why Dumbledore couldn't give Harry any more reason than "I trust Professor Snape" to Harry's answers. This is why Dumbledore was screaming "Let me die" during the potion-drinking in the Cave--because that was the real Dumbledore trying to break free while poor made-fool-of-again-Harry is pouring the potion down his throat because of the promise he made to Voldemort, not Dumbledore.
In my book Slughorn gave Harry that Potions book deliberately. "Slughorn could've handed me that book, " says Ron, "but no, I get the one no one's ever written on." This is not a joke, this is a CLUE. Slughorn deliberately gave Harry that book of dark magic. Slughorn's an agent of Voldemort. How else do I know this? Because in my book, the Felix Felicis was a bloody curse potion, of course. Harry won it because Slughorn meant him to win it, with that book. Harry's meant to save it and use it before he confronts Voldemort, thinking, in a burst of inspiration, that it'll save him, but it'll actually be a potion that when taken under those circumstances will do something to leave him at Voldemort's mercy for whatever Voldemort's got planned. This was further reinforced by the time Harry appears to give it to Ron--but, look, it was a trick; Ron never consumed it. So Harry still didn't know its true effects. (And there would have been that moment, after he consumed it when Harry realized he almost poisoned Ron with it and how close he came.) Then, when Harry actually does take it and the potion "tells" him what to do--I realized, ha, no, see, that wasn't luck, that was some form of liquid Imperius, or some such, in my book. Leading him to get the information that Voldemort wanted from Slughorn. And Harry didn't even know.
In my book when Dumbledore begins to tell Harry about Horncruxes, I knew, oh, my god, I KNEW that Harry was the key Horncrux. And would have to be destroyed. And this was why Dumbledore was acting so strangely--when the Dumbledore side of him was still in control of his own self, he despaired at the thought of having to kill Harry, and when the Voldemort side of him was manifesting, he knew that he would be able to destroy the boy in such a way that he'd get his soul fragment back and could put it somewhere far safer than this boy who threatened his very self with his power. This is why, when Harry said, "And if you do, can I come with you and help get rid of it?", Dumbledore gave Harry that look--half heart-squeezing agony, half dark glee. When they went to the Cave, that was when BOTH dual sides of themselves prepared to do what they wanted to/had to--take Harry to that place of ritual and kill him. But why did Harry escape? Well, surely that would be revealed in the moment of "Snape tells all" at the end of my book.
The message in the locket--of course those initials don't belong to Regulus Black; that's far too obvious. The message had to have come from Dumbledore; surely those initials are some alter-pseudonym of his. "I have discovered the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can." Oh, Harry. He couldn't do it to you. He couldn't. He loved you too much and all he can do is hope that Snape will find some way to save you from this fate in the next book. And Snape'll do it, too. You're not fated to die, Harry--Rowling loves you too much.
That was the book I was reading.
And suddenly, in chapter 29, as I waited for all this to be revealed--that Snape had had to kill Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted him to, because Voldemort was using Dumbledore and D. could not bear to be used like that any longer, and this was the only way, and as I waited with Harry for Harry to see that huge, horrible revelation...
...it turned into some other book.
What happened to that book?
Am I really the only one who read that book?
I suspect this post makes no sense. I have been told by several others that I'm not making sense. I'm sorry. But I'm bewildered and lost.
In my book, Snape was going to either kill or be killed by Dumbledore, but it was so obvious that he was NOT working for Voldemort that that was clearly going to be revealed by the end of this book.
In my book, Dumbledore was acting in such an erratic manner that it was clear that something had a hold of him--half the time Voldemort was actually controlling him, was my bet. All that stuff about Harry being the only one who could get the memory from Slughorn? Bulls**t. Dumbledore coulda done it like that. That was Voldemort pushing Harry to do something Voldemort couldn't. This was why Dumbledore had vague excuses. This is why Dumbledore was all "I am very disappointed in you, Harry, there will be no more lessons until you get that memory from Slughorn." This was why Dumbledore couldn't give Harry any more reason than "I trust Professor Snape" to Harry's answers. This is why Dumbledore was screaming "Let me die" during the potion-drinking in the Cave--because that was the real Dumbledore trying to break free while poor made-fool-of-again-Harry is pouring the potion down his throat because of the promise he made to Voldemort, not Dumbledore.
In my book Slughorn gave Harry that Potions book deliberately. "Slughorn could've handed me that book, " says Ron, "but no, I get the one no one's ever written on." This is not a joke, this is a CLUE. Slughorn deliberately gave Harry that book of dark magic. Slughorn's an agent of Voldemort. How else do I know this? Because in my book, the Felix Felicis was a bloody curse potion, of course. Harry won it because Slughorn meant him to win it, with that book. Harry's meant to save it and use it before he confronts Voldemort, thinking, in a burst of inspiration, that it'll save him, but it'll actually be a potion that when taken under those circumstances will do something to leave him at Voldemort's mercy for whatever Voldemort's got planned. This was further reinforced by the time Harry appears to give it to Ron--but, look, it was a trick; Ron never consumed it. So Harry still didn't know its true effects. (And there would have been that moment, after he consumed it when Harry realized he almost poisoned Ron with it and how close he came.) Then, when Harry actually does take it and the potion "tells" him what to do--I realized, ha, no, see, that wasn't luck, that was some form of liquid Imperius, or some such, in my book. Leading him to get the information that Voldemort wanted from Slughorn. And Harry didn't even know.
In my book when Dumbledore begins to tell Harry about Horncruxes, I knew, oh, my god, I KNEW that Harry was the key Horncrux. And would have to be destroyed. And this was why Dumbledore was acting so strangely--when the Dumbledore side of him was still in control of his own self, he despaired at the thought of having to kill Harry, and when the Voldemort side of him was manifesting, he knew that he would be able to destroy the boy in such a way that he'd get his soul fragment back and could put it somewhere far safer than this boy who threatened his very self with his power. This is why, when Harry said, "And if you do, can I come with you and help get rid of it?", Dumbledore gave Harry that look--half heart-squeezing agony, half dark glee. When they went to the Cave, that was when BOTH dual sides of themselves prepared to do what they wanted to/had to--take Harry to that place of ritual and kill him. But why did Harry escape? Well, surely that would be revealed in the moment of "Snape tells all" at the end of my book.
The message in the locket--of course those initials don't belong to Regulus Black; that's far too obvious. The message had to have come from Dumbledore; surely those initials are some alter-pseudonym of his. "I have discovered the real Horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can." Oh, Harry. He couldn't do it to you. He couldn't. He loved you too much and all he can do is hope that Snape will find some way to save you from this fate in the next book. And Snape'll do it, too. You're not fated to die, Harry--Rowling loves you too much.
That was the book I was reading.
And suddenly, in chapter 29, as I waited for all this to be revealed--that Snape had had to kill Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted him to, because Voldemort was using Dumbledore and D. could not bear to be used like that any longer, and this was the only way, and as I waited with Harry for Harry to see that huge, horrible revelation...
...it turned into some other book.
What happened to that book?
Am I really the only one who read that book?
I suspect this post makes no sense. I have been told by several others that I'm not making sense. I'm sorry. But I'm bewildered and lost.
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:44 am (UTC)But...yeah. I don't know.
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Date: 2005-07-17 12:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:45 am (UTC)But I think what happened, is (at least for me) I had become so accustomed to the gorgeous stories that the fandom was weaving that I forgot exactly what Rowling's writing felt like. And when it was not quite so complex as I would have liked, when everyone we thought was good WAS pretty much good, except Snape. Some of J.K.'s comments on Snape have led me to believe she's not going to redeem him at all- things about people liking Snape far too much, and that we would not at the end, and things like that- and I am wishing that she had gone with what you've outlined above.
However.
I liked the book. More than liked it, actually. I loved it. I thought it was pretty excellent, despite what I just said. That, and the fact that everyone sort of forgot about Sirius.
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Date: 2005-07-17 12:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 04:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 12:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 04:52 am (UTC)Oh,apart from a cursory reference to him at the beggining of the book along the lines of: "Very sorry he died, name cleared, was innocent all along, by the way, you've inherited everything he ever owned because despite believing himself to be indestructible, he had the foresight to write out a will. Which by the way, didn't leave his penniless
loverbest friend a single red cent. And now, on with the rest of the story."WHAT?!?!??!?!?!?
*ahem*
Seriously, when I read Chapter Two, I thought "Bella's the bonder. Vow is probably only unbreakable as long as she lives. Heh. Bella is so dead." And then the rest of the book went by in a blur, but I know what you mean about it turning into another book in the last few chapters.
:(
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Date: 2005-07-17 07:36 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:53 am (UTC)As for Slughorn, I kept on waiting for something to happen with him. Why did he give Harry that potion book. And the locket, I think Regulus may be too obvious but I don't think it's Dumbledore either.
I don't know - I think i'm still in shock and trying to figure it all out.
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Date: 2005-07-17 12:54 pm (UTC)This makes a lot of sense.
But why couldn't he tell Harry why he trusted Snape?
Unfortunately, so does THAT.
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:54 am (UTC)'ok, love. In the book I was reading, Draco had been bitten by the nasty werewolf, which was why his arm was sore, and why he was getting sick, and disappearing during Quidditch matches (Yeah, like Draco would ever do so otherwise...). That was the hold the bad guys had over him, and he was supposed to turn into the wolf and wreak havoc and kill Harry, but Snape was feeding him wolfsbane potion..
Alright, maybe my subtext wasn't quite as clear as your's.
I'm still not sure which way I think it's going, and I think I like that about it, cause - yes - you can read all sorts of things into it. I did feel that there was more to DD's arm, and his wearing the ring, than was seen. And YES - what was he channelling under the potion? Was it the real DD trying to get out?
Of course, in my state of post-reading-marathon hysteria, I'm pretty sure that RAB stands for 'Really Albus Bumbledore' - but don't pay any attention to me!
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:56 am (UTC)But now I have no idea about anything. Including why everyone had to hook up and Sirius had to be disregarded and tossed to the side.
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Date: 2005-07-17 12:57 pm (UTC)And about Sirius--see my next post.
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:57 am (UTC)The problem that I have is that NONE of the Snape plot was foreshadowed. None of it. She's spent five whole books setting up Snape as one thing, and now he's another without any warning, and I'm absolutely numb. First that it was done so clumsily, and second that none of the other characters had a clue that someone they'd known for decades was a complete and utter fake. That just *isn't* realistic. Even a deep cover spy like Kim Philby blew his cover badly enough that it was as much MI-6's incompetence as anything else that kept him out of jail.
My fanfic just went AU as of the end of Book Five, no question. And me, I'm numb. Absolutely numb.
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:20 am (UTC)And that's an argument in favor of the loyal-to-Dumbledore!Snape argument. Because she *wouldn't* just throw something that major in with no foreshadowing.
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:58 am (UTC)This is why Dumbledore was all "I am very disappointed in you, Harry, there will be no more lessons until you get that memory from Slughorn."
Yes, that felt very odd to mee, too. It just didn't sound like Dumbledore's voice, at all. Very odd, and yes, I did think of Voldemort at that moment. He was treating Harry in a way that was analogous to how V treats the DE (with no Crucio, of course).
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:59 am (UTC)The note from RAB was not in Dumbledore's style at all. It was blatantly arrogant -- right in line with a prince of the house of Black, while Dumbledore is more apt to pretend to be self-depreciating. Also, Dumbledore knew there was more than one horcrux, while the note implies the writer thought there was only one. Sure he could be trying to make Voldemort think he thought there was only one... but in that case why let him know who took the locket at all? It also addresses Voldemort as 'the Dark Lord'. Dumbledore wasn't afraid to use Voldemort's name, but the DE's obviously are. Also why the hell would Voldemort actually take the locket if he was being controlled by Voldemort? And wouldn't Voldemort recognize that it was a different locket? And if he was still Dumblie at that point, why steal his own note, which he intended for Voldemort?
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 04:59 am (UTC)Sleep is a good thing. It'll be better in the morning. And then you can take your plotline and turn it into something long and intricate and utterly filthy I can dream, can't I?
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:11 pm (UTC)And the lack of Sirius-dealing. Oh, my god. (That's what's in my next post.)
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:00 am (UTC)In my book, Dumbledore is still very manipulative and he wants Harry to get that memory from Slughorn, even though he could easily get it himself. But... whoa. Holy shit, now I am really liking the Imperio'd Dumbledore theory because when Snape is about to kill him, maybe that's the one time the real Albus manages to surface.
The message in the locket--of course those initials don't belong to Regulus Black; that's far too obvious.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. When has Rowling ever had anything that obvious?
When Snape turns on Harry with his all-encompassing loathing and pain of being called a coward, I swear I read the fury and rage of being the only one that Dumbledore could trust to do the real dirty work with a straight face. I hate to say it, but Harry needs Snape much more than he ever needed Sirius.
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:41 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:07 am (UTC)I think it's perfectly obvious Dumbledore knows what Snape's up to just as much as Draco, and that he was in no way ppleading for Snape to save him. I fully expect he knew what Severus had sworn.
I do not think Snarry is dead. At ALL. Any more than leaving Slug!Draco stuffed in a luggage rack was the end of H/D.
I was moderately concerned for a time that Slughorn was a baddie, except I have nebulous ideas abut the shape of the series and certain patterns moving throughout that I think I think don't work that way. Related to the new teachers, the trio relationship, etc. Nebulous, I tell you, but enough to make me doubt that was happening.
Odds are the fact that I was utterly and thoroughly spoiled (deliberately) impacted my reading. I knew where it was going.
Also, *betas post* HORcrux. Word that makes me thing "prostitute's crotch" Not horn. :P
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:20 pm (UTC)Um. I read Dumbledore failing in big ways that made him unable to do some things. I read him as *quite* weakened by the thing that happened to his arm.
This works. I can see it, yes.
And of course Snarry's not dead. Real, honest Snarry is alive for the FIRST time, you sillies.
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:11 am (UTC)But fucking HELL what the FUCK was that FUCKING ending???? You tell me! What you'd been expecting sounds just about right to me; all the Dumbledore being possessed by Voldemort and Harry being the smart guy he's supposed to be...
But apparently, he's got luck enough to escape Voldemort more than enough times, but he hasn't got the brains to pieces one and one together. I mean... he lightbulbs at all the odd places and MISSES THE KEY POINTS!! Like doesn't he even SLIGHTLY suspect the woozy behaviour of Dumbledore during the good last half of the book? And the plea he whimpers to Snape? Harry, please wake up and smell the bumblebees!
Anyway, now that I've ranted for the third time, I might live through this slight disappointment. You never know, j.k. might reveal your theory in the seventh installment which will come out when we're old and wrinkled.
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:23 pm (UTC)But that Sirius wasn't dealt with--that's pain that I'll be a long time getting over.
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:13 am (UTC)I realized, ha, no, see, that wasn't luck, that was some form of liquid Imperius, or some such, in my book. Leading him to get the information that Voldemort wanted from Slughorn. And Harry didn't even know.
There's a similarity to how he is compelled to do things by Imperius and by Felix. When Moody tries to get him to jump on the desk, a "little voice" tells him to, and in Hagrid's Hut a little voice tells him not to drink the booze. Same little voice? Maybe.
Possibly even more telling, Rosmerta is a barmaid and could have been controlled through the same substance. Not enough info on Imperius is in canon, I think, to rule out having it be a liquid charm.
I'm more skeptical on the Voldemort/Dumbledore angle but admittedly there are large, sketchy portions of time where Dumbledore is GONE and nobody knows WHY and he won't TELL.
...on the other hand hon, your book could very well be HP7. This is cliffhangery to the max, all this don't ask don't tell could all be explained.
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 05:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 07:40 am (UTC)That's the best argument I've yet heard; thank you.
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:23 am (UTC)stop possesing my brain. Because, OMG, I was thinking that too!
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Date: 2005-07-17 07:47 am (UTC)Or maybe... DD Drank Voldemort's soul and the last Horcrux is *now* the tomb? oooooooh? :p
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:29 am (UTC)Honestly, every time someone doesn't like it, I feel stupid because I didn't notice the things other people had problems with. Granted, I'm her target audience, but I'm sure there are people my age noticing these things, and I'm just not. Bah. *sad*
Your book sounds cleverer, at any rate, and I'm sorry hers didn't deliver. ) :
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 05:54 am (UTC)And third - most importantly - why do it at all? If he had Dumbledore under his control, why not just kill him?
I think you may be looking for deeper reasoning that JKR planned to put into what she still sees a young adult/children's fantasy novel. Even making Snape a hidden spy in the face of Harry's horror is deeper than you might generally expect.
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:37 pm (UTC)Thank you for putting some logic together so that I can figure out exactly how this did go.
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Date: 2005-07-17 05:56 am (UTC)I suspected that Slughorn gave Harry that book on purpose, with not giving it to Ron, and even if you tear the insides out of a ratty old book and replace it with shiny new ones, it will look and feel like a new book anyway, and he would have suspected something was fishy even if he didn't know what that book was, but the advice in it was so good that it seems more likley that he did know what it was, so your explanation makes sense.
(Also, btw, do you not love HBP!Snape?)
This Dumbledore did disturb me a bit; I was glad to see bits of his old twinkly self, and that he was now someone that Harry could confide in again, at least a little, but from the explanations that he gave Harry after he had the memory, he already had enough evidence to reasonably be able to believe the thing about the horcruxes; the only important thing he got from the memory was the number 7, which he would have been able to guess anyway, and as you said, he would have been able to do what Harry did. he made Harry risk his life just for the number 7!
If it turns out that Harry is one of the last Horcruxes (Btw, do you also want to spell it Horcruces?), that would confirm a theory I've suspected since the very beginning, that the only way Harry would be able to destroy Voldemort in the end would include his own death; that would make lots of sense, but if it turns out not to be so I wouldn't be surprised either.
Also btw, you scared me for a minute with you cut text, because I adored this book, almost from beginning to end, and it will remain my favorite HP book, and consensus seems to be "Yay! This is good stuff!" so if you said that you were reading a different book, I was terrified that you would hate it. I'm glad that that's not the case!
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Date: 2005-07-17 01:41 pm (UTC)But I'm in the midst of grieving for the lack of Sirius-grieving in this book, and that's going to be hard.
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:05 am (UTC)On the other hand, I doubt that Voldemort would have been controlling Harry through the Felix Felicis so that he'd obtain information from Slughorn if Slughorn was Voldemort's agent. My brain can't make a link there. That doesn't mean that I don't think there's something suss about a "luck" potion telling you what to do. Liquid Imperius? Maybe not. Some form of subtle suggestion used to alter behaviour without the person consuming it being any the wiser? Sure, why not?
And yes, I think that Harry may be a Horncrux. When I first read that Voldemort looked for a Gryffindor artifact to make into a Horoncrux, my first thought was about how funny it would be (after all the fandom speculation) if it turned out that Harry was indeed the Heir of Gryffindor and Voldemort had chosen him over Neville for that reason. Hey, half the het ships in fandom all surfaced in the last few chapters, why can't some other over-indulged-upon theories make their way in, too?
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 06:19 am (UTC)THANK YOU!!!! I thought that too!!
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-17 06:23 am (UTC)To me, Dumbledore's always been a pretty damned inconsistent character, so this was just more of the same and not really anything sinister.
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:09 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:49 am (UTC)If you're curious at all about my take on it, you can read my initial thoughts (http://www.livejournal.com/users/revena/80544.html) on having finished the book.
And P.S., thanks for doing the
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:15 pm (UTC)On my next readthrough, I'm going to look at it that way because I think that's right.
Your thoughts were very similar to mine--even if I didn't feel the Harry/Ginny I do think that the het ships were, well, to be expected, duh.
I'm SO glad you enjoyed
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Date: 2005-07-17 07:09 am (UTC)This is the first time she's done this. The other books wrap up neatly.
Once the series is complete I'm sure this book is going to be my favourite, because I'm all for anti-heros.
Icarus
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Date: 2005-07-17 06:17 pm (UTC)