Have stopped breathing into paper bag. Now:

[amanuensis1]

(Okay. Hands folded, thoughts gathered, past the first flush of WTF? and bewilderment and heartache and 'You thought WHAT?' outburts, and on to the more meticulous dissection of the story's climax.)


Some of you must have noticed that in the past 2 days, I've been sort of spamming your "Thoughts on HBP" posts with a particular theme: that of Snape's loyalties, and that it isn't ambiguous at all.

It was at first dismaying, and now it's a revelation, that everyone didn't have the same read as I did on Snape and Dumbledore. My appreciation for this book has jacked up, because of that. My appreciation for Rowling, too, with her knowing her audience, knowing that some people would see it, and that others would be uncertain, and others would be deceived as her protagonist was deliberately deceived. And that there would be debate. And that's--wow.

So I was wrong. It isn't obvious.

But it is all there, and I still won't put "I think" or "I believe" on any of this.

--For those of you who saw it, do you agree that The Sixth Sense couldn't have ended any other way? That, while the film is designed to deceive you and make you gasp at the ending, the evidence of what is going on is all there if you know how to put it together? If you do see the twist halfway through the film, then you don't wonder after that point--you know. Every moment after keeps confirming what you know. If you didn't get the twist until the end, but you watch the film a second time, you see how every moment confirms the truth, even if it was meant to deceive.

(Notice how I didn't reveal the ending. Yes, it's a brilliant film, and if you haven't seen it, you should.)

HBP, in regards to Snape's loyalties, is crafted in the same manner.

And part of why I haven't been responding with "the moments of proof"--part of why I was howling, "But you cannot let this book end there when we KNOW the answer!"--is because it's so plain to me. Every moment illustrating the actions of Snape with regard to Dumbledore and vice-versa just keeps confirming what I know, over and over.

Because it's there from Chapter Two.

Chapter Two, Spinner's End, is in the book for one reason: to show Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. To show the web of deceit he's had to craft to stay in Voldemort's graces, to show Narcissa snaring him in a moment when he will be forced to die for the cause, because she has bound him to a treachery so terrible he will not be able to carry it out. (Except that his boss will tell him, surprise, yes you WILL carry it out.) I could speak about the title and its metaphor of the crafty spinner of lies meeting the portended moment of his doom, but that's metaphor and quite subjective, certainly. I'm speaking of the reason the reader is asked to watch the scene at all.

Why is "Ah, Snape is indeed loyal to Dumbledore, then," the true interpretation of that scene? Because if Snape were loyal to Voldemort, the Spinner's End scene would never have been in the book. Never, no way, no how. It would serve no purpose. It would weaken the book. If Snape were loyal to Voldemort, there is no reason to foreshadow their plans--it makes the killing less powerful a moment, not more. If Snape were loyal to Voldemort then this scene eliminates his ambiguity and makes the killing less powerful, not more. I can't even anticipate what other arguments people may say for this; this is one of those "this is how a book IS, this is what a reader KNOWS," moments where words fail me to explain. But if you wish to set forth your arguments, then I will know where to begin, and I'll answer them. I'll amend this post to include them, if necessary.

Coming away from that scene, you don't know what Snape's being bound to. I thought it might be the killing of Dumbledore. But I thought it could be other things too. What I did know was that Snape had become trapped, and this meant that he would most likely choose to die before carrying it out. I envisioned Snape preventing Draco from killing Dumbledore and then ordering Dumbledore to kill him, so that he would not be forced by this Vow to complete the mission. (We find out later that the unfulfilled vow kills by itself, so, that might not have gone that way--but as it stood in Chapter Two, I suspected Snape had bought his own death, with that vow.) Come the revelation that Snape's now DADA (which I called! Yay!), the "curse" of the DADA position reinforced my fear that Snape was for the chop.

It wasn't until chapter 19--and you can see the post on hbp_chapters if you want to see how I remember the very chapter--that I said, "Shit. Dumbledore is going to make Snape kill him. So that Draco Malfoy will not be a murderer and because Snape's life is more valuable to him than his own and so that Snape can keep his cover. Oh, my god, what a wrench this is going to be to watch."

(Yes, as evidenced by my first post-HBP post, I had other suspicions/expectations convoluting the plot. I thought part of why Dumbledore was the expendable one had to do with the possibility that Voldemort had found ways to take him over at times. Explaining D.'s erratic behavior. More on that later. But the essential "Snape will kill Dumbledore at Dumbledore's command" never left me.)

And as it fell out just that way, I didn't gasp, I didn't wonder--I nodded at every turn. Nodded when Draco couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore, that Snape arrived, that Dumbledore saw the I cannot do this, don't make me do this in Snape's eyes, and said, "Please..."please don't hesitate any longer, do it, I have commanded it and you know it has to be... Nodded when Snape's face twisted in that expression of I hate you for making me do this, hate myself for being the one who must do this.

Nodded at every word Snape yelled at Harry, nodded as he blocked every curse Harry threw without returning one of his own, goading Harry all the while, you must be stronger than this, you must remember every lesson I have given you, foolish boy, if you are to destroy the dark lord and justify this sacrifice --and not only nodded but wept at his "Don't call me coward!" as Snape broke just that much, unable to bear that that word should be used to brand the bravest act of his life.

In the past two days, some of you have broken down those moments and found the one or ones that clinched it for you. I'll point you to fabularasa's "Dumbledore would never plead for his life; that's the theme of this whole series" essay as one example if you haven't seen it, because it's perfect.

Of course I believe everyone can and should take any interpretation from the book that they like regarding Snape's motives. Or regarding anything. That's the beauty of the interaction between a text and its reader; the immutability of the actual words mixed with the possibilites of interpretation.

But Rowling's Sixth Sense-ing us with this one, guys. 'S all there.


More thoughts on other HBP stuff soon.

Comments

[lunarennui.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY. it is SCREAMING from the pages starting at chapter 2. i knew the moment he agreed to make the unbreakable vow WHY he would do it, and what would happen. that anyone could read the whole book and NOT see it is mindboggling for me.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

*joins you in solemn mindboggled-ness*

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

My first instinct upon reading That Scene was in sympatico with yours, and now that I've gone back for a second read, I can't see how it could possibly be otherwise from a narrative standpoint - Chapter 2, the scene with Harry before the search for the horcrux, and also Harry's implicit trust of the HBP throughout the whole thing...

JKR rocks.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I can't see how it could possibly be otherwise from a narrative standpoint

Exactly, from the entire structure of the narrative. How a reader knows, what a book is.

[sorion.livejournal.com]

Funny... While in your first entry I didn't quite get where you were taking it... This time I agree fully ^-^

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heh, I was summarizing about four different things and was still in something of a frenzy at that time. Here I've been trying to be a little more focused.

Sixth Sense. OMG.

[nykohl.livejournal.com]

When I first read Chapter 2, I thought, my god, isn't Snape a marvelous actor? And when I read Dumbledore pleading, I never thought once that it was for his life. I thought, This man knows he's going to die, he's pleading for Snape to finish it. When Harry was immobilized, that's what clinched it for me - Dumbledore wanted Harry to stay and watch, because he knew that ultimately, Harry would realise what Snape was doing, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually.

Re: Sixth Sense. OMG.

[sobriquet-99.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that he had to keep Harry from even trying to stop him -- he had to die, and he didn't want Harry hurt.

God. The more I think about it, the more it breaks my heart, because Snape's either going to meet a horrible, horrible end...




... or become permanent D.A.D.A. Professor once the curse is broken. ;) (Arthur Weasley for Minister '07!)

[satanbaker.livejournal.com]

*nods* I agree with all of those points very much so, especially the thing of, if Snape was actually loyal to Voldemort... why include that chapter? It would serve no purpose if he was actually loyal to him, though it very much serves a purpose if he isn't.

When I read it, I personally wasn't looking for things. I wasn't trying to guess my way through before I read it... But that's just how I read things, watch things, whatever. I let the author, director, whoever, guide me through what they've created, and then only afterwards think about the things I liked, disliked, and so on.

And I personally really liked that the truth isn't totally clear, that everything wasn't explained perfectly for Harry, that he's basing things purely on what he has seen, his thoughts and memories. It's making the story seem more real, and less like a moralistic children's story (You know the ones... the stories with a specific set-up that the main character goes through, and then his/her mentor goes and explains everything that happened and what's right and wrong, those stories).

But, I swear, it's hard for me to be unhappy with anything that has that much Tom. *cough* *wallows in her Tom-fangirlness* (Though I'm thinking I might jump his father instead. Then I'll miss out on the crazy-inducing genetics!)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I let the author, director, whoever, guide me through what they've created, and then only afterwards think about the things I liked, disliked, and so on.

Sometimes I can do that. I like NOT looking for the twist, because it's more fun that way--I didn't figure out The Sixth Sense until just a tad before the end, and I'm so glad I didn't, because it was nfitier that way.

And I personally really liked that the truth isn't totally clear, that everything wasn't explained perfectly for Harry,--You know, that's fair, and I even brighten when thinking like that. I do always protest that I don't like things tied up with a bow.

[gaeta.livejournal.com]

I was so certain that Snape wouldn't die in this book that I missed entirely what you saw in Chapter 2, but of course, you're right: he thought he was sealing his own death warrant. Had I somehow been clued in to the uncomfortable reality that books 6 and 7 are really one, not two, I might have seen it differently. I think that scene does ultimately set up both Snape's "betrayal" of Dumbledore and his own death that is the probable end result of his committment.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I was so certain that Snape wouldn't die in this book that I missed entirely what you saw in Chapter 2,

And, of course, you were right about that! I really didn't see how Snape's death could make sense in this book, but, cripes, I was prepared to have JKR show me why it could, and that scared me, no question.

I fear that Snape won't be satisfied until he's died for that deed. Wibble.

[jennifus.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I'm getting rather ill from reading all the "omg snape's such a BASTARD" posts.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heh, every time I see one of those, I mutter, "More work to do. A zealot's job is never done." Hee.

[marksykins.livejournal.com]

Yes to all of this. That is all. :D

[lazy-neutrino.livejournal.com]

What she says. Yes. This is how I read the book, in the same way and at the same points. I realised what Draco's mission was likely to be in chapter two and was mentally screaming at the good guys to figure it out and work around it.

Ah well.

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

I felt so bad for Snape in Chapter 2, needing to play into Narcissa's hands in order to get more information.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Or to stay carefully unsuspicious, too. God, just that bit of hesitation could have killed his entire cover, and he knew it.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Full agreement. Yes, I screamed like a loon at the actual Avada Kedavra, but only because it all fell into place, not because I doubted for a moment that they had planned it. And had fits of 'poor Snape' all the way through to the end. What a 'terrible' job! And yet, nobody else would do it, and Dumbledore would not have asked anyone else.
Much as I distrust Dumbledore the manipulator, and for all that he employs twats on a regular basis (and now we know why - wouldn't do to waste a *good* teacher on a Voldemort-cursed position), he's *right* about people. He wouldn't have trusted Snape blindly if his loyalties weren't beyond question. And yes, the plea, that's got to be conclusive evidence for sure.
I shared your surprise that not everybody automatically saw it this way :).

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, I screamed like a loon at the actual Avada Kedavra, but only because it all fell into place, not because I doubted for a moment that they had planned it.

I actually envy you. It would have been fabulous to see it all fall into place at that moment! I love NOT getting the twist until you're supposed to get it. Though in the case of this book, I think Rowling is thinking people aren't supposed to get it and that plenty of people aren't going to get it until she reveals it in book 7. (And she looks to be right!)

[ariadneelda.livejournal.com]

I totally believe now that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. I can't afford not to believe it. I've begun re-reading the book, trying to find the clues.

And I agree with everything you've said here. Or almost everything. I mean, I'm not so sure that Narcissa trapped Snape. I assume that Snape already knew about the plan, just like he said. What if he'd already discussed it with Dumbledore, they had foreseen Narcissa's visit, and Dumbledore told him to make that Vow if it came to that? So that Draco wouldn't become a killer? It seems to me that Snape could have refused to make the Vow. It's not as if he'd go against Voldemort's orders by refusing. Well, just a thought. It could be far-fetched that they had foreseen Narcissa's visit.

What slightly shakes my belief in this good!Snape theory, though, is JKR herself. I just read the interview she gave to Mugglenet and The Leaky Cauldron and she's clearly hinted at Dumbledore making emotional mistakes because "his wisdom has isolated him". Of course, it could just be JKR trying to mislead us as usual. I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

[ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com]

Well, and Dumbledore *has* made those mistakes. What about how he treated Sirius in OotP?

[karasu-hime.livejournal.com]

*Well Said!*

I totally think the same thing.
*nods*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Because we know how these things work. Hee.

(Though people can have fun with any interpretation they like, yes. I'm just not remotely conflicted on this one.)

[mousewrites.livejournal.com]

Other thoughts about chapter 2:

In the rest of the books, every chapter (save ONE at the beginings of a few books) have been from Harry's point of view. And the ones that wern't were from relitively minor characters, or previously unknown characters.

Chapter 2 threw me. Not just the content (all though I went cold when I read it) but because it was THERE. It represented something so important that JKR had to put in a SECOND non-harry POV chapter, and this one gives so much information...

Chilling. Of course, you already commented on my post, and I appreciate you not laughting at me buying the ebil (like many of the children who read the book undoubtedly did).

This book is dark and complicated enough that wonder if the small fry who read it will even like the series after this? I mean the very small fry (the 6-10 set) who aren't yet used to looking for other motives or analyzing plot? I can just imagin some poor little kid bursting into tears and running to their mother when they hit that fateful moment...

I predect at least one news story about that.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

There's already been a news story about it. Kids having nightmares and bursting in to tears. I think the zombies had something to do with it for some of them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_riz/]

Word.

I am not sure where Snape is going from this point on, but everything in HBP as you explain it, there really is no other explanation. I hadn't really had time to process all of this before my friends explained it all to me (they finished hours before I did, bastards). But as you said, Because if Snape were loyal to Voldemort, the Spinner's End scene would never have been in the book. That's what clinched it for me. The fact that if we're supposed to decide that Snape = Evil, that chapter would be the sloppiest, most heavy-handed thing JKR has EVER WRITTEN. But seeing as we know better, clearly there's a reason for that chapter. Just like there's a reason for us seeing Mundungus (other than to have us go "omgHOT!" when Harry shoves him against the wall, heh).

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

The fact that if we're supposed to decide that Snape = Evil, that chapter would be the sloppiest, most heavy-handed thing JKR has EVER WRITTEN.

It would be a complete "why the hell is this HERE?" moment. And I cheer those who remembered the locket from OotP and put that together with Mundungus! I definitely didn't remember the locket.

[ldybastet.livejournal.com]

Thank you, yes! This is so well put. I thought these things too, but I couldn't make my numb brain organise the thoughts, so I never made a real 'my thoughts on HBP'-post.

I can't understand either that people don't see this. I guess they are as blinded by how things look on the surface as Harry is?

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I suppose there might be people thinking, "This is the only explanation--therefore, it's going to be even TWISTIER." But probably that's me overcalling it again! They just don't feel the read as we do and that's probably all.

[icon-ified.livejournal.com]

I also tend to think that Harry, who had been told that Dumbledore had implicit trust in Snape, who had been told that Dumbledore was not worried about a thing that Snape and Draco were up to, and who had witnessed Dumbledore's confrontation with Draco and his murder at the hands of Snape, would be able and will be able to decipher all this to the inevitable conclusion that Snape was acting under Dumbledore's orders.

Even as Snape is fleeing, he is trying to tell Harry that he had to do, trying to tell Harry to keep working on his occulemency and his nonverbal spells.

But Harry is too caught up in his emotion, too caught up in the way Snape has treated him and his father and Sirius to just look at reason and see that Snape did not murder Dumbledore, but save him.

I think that the moment Snape made that Vow, he went to Dumbledore and told him about it. And Dumbledore just nodded, because in all his infinite wisdom, he knew that Snape would have to do it in the end. I think he had Snape try to guide and help Draco, but also try to find out what was going to happen so that they could spare student lives.

I think that when he drank that potion, it was killing him. Slowly, but it was killing him. He knew he was going to die, and he knew that his death would have a purpose if it was at the hands of Snape. If Snape murdered, or saved, Dumbledore he would have an unbreakable in with Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and it would save Draco from becoming a murderer himself.

I also think that Harry would realize that when two accomplished Legimens are staring at each other that intensely at a moment like that, it is not a moment of hesitation on Snapes part, but a moment of communication.

Dumbledore was not a man who would plead for his life; he was no more afraid of death than he was afraid of flying.

Maybe once Harry calms down he will realize all of this.

[icon-ified.livejournal.com]

Ahem. Would like to add to the last sentence:

"Maybe once Harry (and the fandom) calms down, he will realize this."

[fleshdress.livejournal.com]

I've seen a couple of people mention that argument that Hagrid overhears between Snape and Dumbledore as proof of this theory and it makes a lot of sense I think.

I don't recallexactly where it is, but Snape does mention not wanting to do it anymore and that DD makes too many assumptions. I think it could quite easily be read as Snape feeling no longer able to murder the one man who's stood by him.

You're probably already ahead of me on this one, but I thought it worth mentioning because it was a lightbulb moment for me. :)

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you for bringing that up--I didn't really remember that as standing out for me, that scene, because it was just one more piece of the puzzle!

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

It was the way she described Snape's expression when he screamed "Don't call me coward!", the pain that was written all over his face which made me ache for him. I've thought him an interesting character throughout the books, but now, he is by far and away my favourite.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what happened to me. Snape went from "You're interesting but you're such a bastard" to "My god, you're the coolest character in the series."

[cyanei.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY.

Thank you for posting this in a coherent fashion so that I can point at it emphatically and say, "THAT'S WHAT I MEAN! IT'S ALL RIGHT THERE!"

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I've been caplocking about it ever since the read. *embraces*

[lightbulb55555.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you. I actually didn't see it at first. It was only after I finished the book, got over the shock... (which now I think about it, wasn't as great as it should have been) and thought about it for a few minutes that I realised how much that scene at Spinner's End so didn't do anything for the book if Snape really was just an evil murdering traitorous bastard, the end. And I never believed that Dumbledore's trust was based on an apology. So I looked through the book again, and it became so clear that Snape *wasn't* a traitor, he *had* to kill Dumbledore, that Dumbledore was *asking* him to. I cried when I read him screaming at Harry not to call him a coward the second time around, and was rather annoyed that Mcgonagall especially seemed so easily persuaded that Dumbledore's trust of Snape was based on an insincere apology for the death of a man he hated. But I suppose they were in shock still, and the evidence rather damning told through Harry's perspective. I'm still not sure how Harry could possibly think that's all there is to it.

I was actually rather surprised when I finally went online and found so much Snape hate. ^^;; Thought it would be obvious to everyone if even I was able to figure it out.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

The Snape-hate took me aback by about a million miles, I can tell you. There are things I missed in the last few chapters, by the way, because I was reading so rapidly, trying to get to the paragraph where Harry would figure it all out or have it explained. I have to do a re-read myself--though I'm getting it by way of Jim Dale's audiobook.

[florahart]

Frankly, I think a LOT of people skimmed chapter two. It had no Harry, and they didn't stop to think why it would be there, or that what were seeing, for one of VERY few times, was Snape interacting, NOT colored by Harry's POV. I think I made toddlerfists of glee half a dozen times during this chapter because every damn thing the man said was just SO possible to read either way. As you say, it's the presence of the chapter at ALL that clinches it for me. I was floored to come back to my flist to wailing and gnashing of teeth--which was why I started contemplating the issue of what the reader brings to the text. What Harry fails to bring to the scene he observes, and what a whole lot of folks will fail to bring, seemed perfectly clear to me, which I thought even as I was reading chapter two was the genius of it.

...Course, there are other gnashings that crack me up too.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

When the first chapter began from a character POV not Harry's, my eyes got big. When the second chapter did the same thing, my eyes got bigger. Really boggled that that didn't seem to clinch it for everyone.

Rowling knows her audience. Really knows.

[aux.livejournal.com]

The possibility that Dumbledore made a mistake in trusting Snape implicitly seems so unlikely since it's been such a strong theme from the start of the books and presumably years before.

Dumbledore must know that Snape has far more to lose by being on Voldemort's side than his, that all doubt was forever banished. I can't wait to discover what it is and if it's nothing more than Snape's remorse about the Potter's betrayal, I'll pulp my copy of HB7.

Presumably that token of trust that they share can't be broken by Dumbledore's death (at anyone's hands) as that would be rather tempting for Snape, so Dumbledore urges Snape to kill him, knowing that he can trust Snape to continue serving his cause and protect Harry.

I'm making quite a meal of agreeing with you.

[rane-ab.livejournal.com]

and if it's nothing more than Snape's remorse about the Potter's betrayal, I'll pulp my copy of HB7.

Not to mention that Dumbledore isn't the only one who trusts Snape. So does Phineas. When Harry asks Dumbledore whether he still trusts Snape and he says his answer has not changed, Phineas says snidely "I should think not." I somehow fail to believe that cynical bastard Phineas Nigellus would fall for a sobstory about Snape's remorse.

[violet-musings.livejournal.com]

Not a Snape fan, m'self--but I agree, he was indeed Dumbledore's man, no matter what Harry might think of him.

So is D the spinner, then? I'm not clear on that point. But that certainly was the beginning of the end for Dumbledore, wasn't it?

I was so certain that Malfoy was a red herring, because Harry was so obsessed with him--and look at how wrong he was about Snape in SS... I still think that Harry was fundamentally wrong, somehow, in his interpretation of what Snape and Malfoy were up to. He was wrong in thinking that Malfoy could possibly kill Dumbledore in cold blood. And he must be wrong about Snape too. Everything Snape did, he did in order to serve Dumbledore.

The reason for Dumbledore's complete faith in Snape has to be somewhere in the text already, or at least strongly hinted at. Dumbledore didn't miss a single trick--he knew time was running out, and he made certain that Harry had every single scrap of information that he needed to carry on alone. There's got to be something in Snape's Pensieve memory from OotP, or something Dumbledore has said to Harry, or maybe even something in that box of files that Harry had to go through for his detention (because Dumbledore so very carefully kept himself out of the way at that point). Somehow there'll be a lot of people kicking themselves for not having guessed it sooner, once the reason is finally made undeniably crystal-clear in book seven.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

There are bottle of memories in Dumbledore's office.

Bottles of memories.

And his potrait is already there, having a nap.

It would be as easy as...oh, I don't know...asking Dumbly himself. Or taking a Pensieve trip.

[pocketroxy.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to hop on your journal and tell you that HBP Chapters was a kick-ass good I idea and I really enjoyed using it while I read the book. Thanks for doing this for us!

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, and thank YOU! I need to put a huge thank-you together for people who made that community so much fun!

[rane-ab.livejournal.com]

Word. Not to mention that there is simply no other explanation for why Dumbledore suddenly gave Snape that cursed DADA position.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I love how people are recalling that and saying that Dumbledore wouldn't have given it to him unless he KNEW how things were gonna go! It makes so much sense.